From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat May  1 14:02:19 2010
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 11:02:19 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Fwd: Apple /// source code -- SOS
In-Reply-To: <41AA03E6-C659-4887-91E4-D5D102E9E119@ti.com>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>	<1F07509F-C1D2-4286-BFFD-A22A0777EF97@n0qds.org>
	<41AA03E6-C659-4887-91E4-D5D102E9E119@ti.com>
Message-ID: <4BDC6CAB.4070800@brouhaha.com>

On 04/29/2010 05:57 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> I think Prodos needs the language card to work, so you are missing 
> some kB in the 48k Apple ][ mode.
ProDOS 1.0 will boot on a 48K Apple II.


From shirlgato at cybermesa.com  Sun May  2 12:12:51 2010
From: shirlgato at cybermesa.com (Shirl Casner)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 10:12:51 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple II ProDOS source
In-Reply-To: <4BDC6CAB.4070800@brouhaha.com>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
	<1F07509F-C1D2-4286-BFFD-A22A0777EF97@n0qds.org>	<41AA03E6-C659-4887-91E4-D5D102E9E119@ti.com>
	<4BDC6CAB.4070800@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <C4E7A83D-C24C-4B6A-AC03-0486A150583C@cybermesa.com>


Hello,

On May 1, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> On 04/29/2010 05:57 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>> I think Prodos needs the language card to work, so you are missing 
>> some kB in the 48k Apple ][ mode.

> ProDOS 1.0 will boot on a 48K Apple II.

Some comments about ProDOS.

- David Craig

---

APPLE II PRODOS MEMORY REQUIREMENTS

I do recall that the original Apple II ProDOS ran on an Apple II with 48KB of RAM, but believe subsequent versions only supported the 64KB Apple II machines. After the Apple IIe system with 64KB RAM became dominant I believe Apple changed ProDOS. I checked into this a little closer and found the following.

The ProDOS source contains the following comment which indicates ProDOS 1.0.2A02 (April 1984) no longer supported 48KB Apple II machines:

	"Removed support for boot in 48K machines"

Source file SRC.PROLDR (ProDOS Loader) includes this memory test:

*********** branch widened- see rev note #62 ***********
                bne          nogood0                   ;hitch to hitch
                lda          romin
                jsr          whchrom                   ;get preliminary system configuration
                bcs          m48k                      ;branch if apple /// emulation
                lda          apple                     ;test for 48k configuration
                and          #$20                      ;by testing for 64k plus.
                bne          m64k                      ;branch if >48k
m48k            jmp          nogood                    ;must have at least 64k

---

APPLE II PRODOS SUPPORT FOR APPLE III SOS BOOTING

ProDOS also supported booting on an Apple III. The ProDOS boot disk contained in block 1 (the second block) the Apple III SOS boot loader. Block 0 contained the ProDOS boot loader. Page 93 of the ProDOS PDF source listing in section titled "sos system boot 1.1" describes ProDOS' dual botting nature.

Page 86 of the ProDOS source PDF listing has the following to say about this BOOTING:

* prodos universal boot loader.  this is the second stage boot
*   for all apple manufactured apple ii disk drives.
* it is located at block zero (0) of a prodos or sos formatted
*   disk(ette).  if booted in apple /// native mode, the regular
*   sos boot will be attempted.

Apple's Apple II ProDOS 8 Technical Reference Manual also discusses this in Appendix C: "ProDOS, the Apple III, and SOS":

As explained earlier in the manual, blocks 0 and 1 of a ProDOS-formatted disk contain the boot code -- the code that reads the operating system from the disk and runs it. Not explained was that this boot code runs on either an Apple II or an Apple III.

When you start up either an Apple II or an Apple III system with a ProDOS disk, the boot code is loaded at $800, and executed. The first thing it does is look to see whether it is running on an Apple II or Apple III. If it is running on an Apple II, it tries to load in the file PRODOS. If it is running on an Apple III, it tries to load in the file SOS.KERNEL. In either case, if the proper file is not found, it displays the appropriate error message.

This means that two versions of an application could be written, one for the Apple II, the other for the Apple III, and packaged together on the same disk. This single disk could be sold to both Apple II and Apple III owners.
---

APPLE II PRODOS VERSION 1.7 SOURCE LISTING

For those with an interest in the source to ProDOS, I have a copy. As the successor to Apple III SOS, this listing is interesting since it shows what parts of SOS were included (file system) in ProDOS and which parts were excluded (memory management, device management, interrupt management).

I have the source for ProDOS 1.7 dated 1988. The source is both in multiple text files and also a single PDF file (329 pages long).

There is an interesting modification history listing of ProDOS starting on page 255 of the PDF listing titled 'MLI Revision History'. It is interesting to note the people involved in ProDOS' development:

	J.R. "Dick" Huston	1.0
	Dale M. Arends		1.0 - 1.2
	Kerry Laidlaw		1.2 & the Education Network (EdNet) version
	Mike Askins		1.2 - 1.4
	Fern Bachman 		1.3 - 1.4
	Ray Chiang		1.3 - 1.4
	Grady Ward		1.5 - 1.7

Apple tracked ProDOS changes using revision note entries in the source listing which contained "rev note #X". Each revision was assigned a unique revision number which was listed in the version history with a description of the revision.

Here is the version history for ProDOS 1.0 (December 1983) to 1.7 (July 1988) ...

                SBTL         'MLI Revision History'
******************************************************************
*                                                                *
*                       C A U T I O N S                          *
*                                                                *
* 1.  In the language card area, the $D000 areas overlay.  To    *
*     determine which bank is in requires that the main bank     *
*     has a CLD instruction ($D8) at location $D000 and the      *
*     alternate bank must not.                                   *
*                                                                *
* 2.  Location $E000 is used to determine the state of ROM vs.   *
*     language card.  Therefore, the values of $E000 in the MLI  *
*     and in the ROM MUST differ.                                *
*                                                                *
* 3.  In the file MEMMGR, the routines CALLDISP, RAMDRVR and     *
*     DOBUS each must access the other $D000 bank.  Therefore,   *
*     they MUST reside ABOVE $E000 in the language card area.    *
*                                                                *
* 4.  In order to tell the difference between a Disk II with a   *
*     DEVID of 0 and a Ram-based driver with a DEVID of 0, the   *
*     Disk II routines MUST start on a page boundary and the     *
*     ram-based driver caller (routine RAMDRVR in file MEMMGR)   *
*     MUST NOT start on a page boundary.                         *
*                                                                *
* 5.  In the ram disk driver (file RAM), the byte that assembles *
*     into location $FF58 MUST be a $60 (RTS) so that the usual  *
*     routine to determine an I/O card's slot (by JSR $FF58)     *
*     will still work even if the Language card is switched in.  *
*                                                                *
* 6.  RWTS calling routine at $FF90 is hard coded at that        *
*     address.  If /RAM driver moves or expands, the routine     *
*     must be moved and the dummy RWTS entry routine in XDOSMLI  *
*     must be changed.                                           *
*                                                                *
* 7.  If the ram disk driver is to be moved (to make room more   *
*     code), the value of the symbol Srce must be updated to     *
*     reflect the change.  It is found in the file 'RAM' and     *
*     should point to where the basic builder 'build.prodos'     *
*     loads the RAM driver into memory.                          *
*                                                                *
* 8.  Any changes in the size of PRODOS/8 must be accompanied    *
*     by changes in P/16 load information... the size is hard    *
*     coded there.                                               *
*                                                                *
* 9.  WARNING!  There are at least four absolute patches in p8   *
*     from pquit and p16.  (1) Pquit "CallDisp" about p8 FCE3    *
*     (2) P16 ChangePath "TOTENT" about p8 FE8A                  *
*     (3) P16 Entry/IsItOpen about p16 96fc about p8 EFA3        *
*     "TSTOPEN"  (4) Pquit's PLOADER direct patch into p8's      *
*     block READ/WRITE dispatch "godev"                          *
*     All of these must be looked at if there are any changes to *
*     p8.                                                        *
*                                                                *
******************************************************************
                PAGE
******************************************************************
*
* NOTE: After each revision is made, the splash screen and the value
*       of KVERSION in the Global Page must be updated to reflect the
*
* Ver 1.0 - Written by J.R. Huston
*         - Updated and released by Dale M. Arends, Dec. 1983
*
* Ver 1.0.1 - by Dale M. Arends, January 1, 1984
*         1.  Bug in status call when testing write protect fixed.
*               (File: READ.WRITE)
*
* Ver 1.0.1A01 - Dale M. Arends, January 20, 1984
*         2.  Force FLUSH of FCB after EOF cutback.
*               (File: CLOSE.EOF)
*
* Ver 1.0.2 - Dale M. Arends, February 7, 1984
*         3.  Replace LDAs with BITs in Interrupt entry area of
*             Global page so it won't destroy Accumulator.
*               (Files: GLOBALS)
*         4.  Fixed bug in Disk core routines so that motor is
*             certain to shut off after recal on an error.
*               (File: XRW1)
*
* Ver 1.0.2A01 - Dale M. Arends, February 13, 1984
*         5.  Rearranged MLI layout within Language Card.
*               (All Files Affected)
*         6.  Rearranged entry to XRW routines to make room for
*             a CLD as first byte.  This is necessary since XRW
*             routines are now at $D000 and the CLD flags bank as
*             Main $D000 space.  Also added check for valid call
*             number (0-3).  (Both XRW files affected.)
*
* Ver 1.0.2A02 - Dale M. Arends, April 4, 1984
*         7.  Rewrote machine ID routine to allow for Phylums of
*             machines.    Ranges:  0n - //c
*                                   4n - ???
*               (File: PROLDR)      8n - ???
*                                   En - //e
*
*         8.  Removed support for boot in 48K machines.
*               (File: PROLDR)
*
* Ver 1.1XA01 - Dale M. Arends, May 3, 1984
*         9.  Modified Interrupt routine to allow for new ROMs in //c
*             and //e machines.
*               (Files: PROLDR, EQUATES, GLOBALS, XDOSMLI)
*        10.  Removed check for OS version number in file OPEN routine.
*               (File: POSN.OPEN)
*        11.  Incremented KVERSION number in Global page.
*               (Files: GLOBALS)
*        12.  Modified DEVSRCH routine to correctly reflect the
*             presence of any 80-col card following established
*             signature byte protocol.
*               (File: DEVSRCH)
*
* Ver 1.1XA02 - Dale M. Arends, May 11, 1984
*        13.  Added routine to allow for firmware in slot 3 to be
*             enabled. In //e, internal $C300 firmware is enabled
*             if no ROM in slot 3.  This is necessary for interrupts
*             and BRKs to work.  NOTE: any ROMs in slot 3 MUST support
*             the 80-column interrupt and BRK entry points or an
*             interupt or BRK will cause a system hang.
*               (File: PROLDR)
*        14.  Added routine to turn off all disk motor phases prior
*             to SEEKing a track on a Disk II call.
*               (File: XRW2)
*
* Ver 1.1XA02 renamed Ver 1.1 - Dale M. Arends, June 14, 1984
*
* Ver 1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 7-19-84)
*        15.  Added routine for accessing user installed drivers
*             located in AUX Language Card.
*               (Files: PROLDR, MEMMGR)
* Ver 1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 08-17-84)
*        16.  Added work-around for bug when accessing /RAM after it
*             has been removed from DEVLST.
*               (File: NEWFNDVOL)
*        17.  Reduced the RAM DISK by 1 block to protect the interrupt
*             vector area of the Aux Language Card.  Interrupt vectors
*             installed in the Aux Language Card at boot time.
*               (File: RAM, PROLDR)
*
* Ver 1.1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 9-18-84)
*        18.  Fixed routine in RSETPHSE to map into Drive 1.
*               (File: XRW2)
*        19.  Rewrote Machine ID routine to give I/O precedence to
*             an identifiable 80-column card in Slot 3.
*               (File: PROLDR)  (See #12 above.)
*
* Ver 1.2XA01 - by Dale M. Arends - 10/3/84
*        20.  Added MLI Call for AppleBus and driver calling code.
*              (Files: EQUATES, PROLDR, XDOSMLI, MEMMGR, DATATBLS)
*        21.  Fixed bug in error return of Ram Disk Driver.
*              (File: RAM)
*        22.  Assigned a SYSTEM ERROR when error occurs in deallocating
*             blocks from a TREE file.
*              (File: DETREE)
*        23.  Fixed bug in zeroing of a VCB when trying reallocating
*             a previously used VCB.
*              (File: NEWFNDVOL)
*        24.  Modified Loader to automatically install up to 4 drives if
*             the Smart Driver follows the defined $CnFE bit protocol.
*              (File: DEVSRCH)
*        25.  Modified MLI entry routines to disable interrupts until
*             after MLIACTV flag is set and CMDADR is set up.
*             (Note: change is not noted in source code.)
*              (Files: GLOBALS, XDOSMLI)
*
* Ver 1.2XA02 - Lost in the Wilds of the San Jose Triangle.
*        (Go to the Bermuda Triangle and turn left.)
*
* Ver 1.2XA03 - by Dale M. Arends - 1/24/85
*        26.  Modified Dispatcher to treat the DELETE key as a
*              Back Space (Left Arrow).
*              (File: SEL)
*
* Ver 1.2XA04 - by Dale M. Arends - 1/28/85
*        27.  Modified splash screen to reflect version control loss.
*              (File: DEVSRCH)
*
* Ver 1.2XA05 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 2/11/85
*        28.  Modified the ONLINE call to zero out a VCB corresponding
*             to a disconnected device.  Previously if a user followed
*             our method on disconnecting a device by removing the
*             volume's device number in the device list, and removing
*             the device handler's address from the device vector table,
*             ProDOS never removed the corresponding VCB entry.  Now
*             in addition to the above, the user can then issue a
*             specific ONLINE call to the user disconnected device.  A
*             no device connected error ($28) will be returned in the
*             accumulator, but the VCB will be taken off line.
*              (File: BFMGR)
*
* Ver 1.2XA06 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 3/20/85
*        29.  Fixed bug in PROLDR file that did not swap back correct
*             bank.
*              (File:PROLDR)
*        30.  Added the "real" AppleTalk drivers that will reside in
*             bank 2, $D400-$DFFF, in the Main Language Card.
*              (File:BUS)
*
* Ver 1.2xa08 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 5/15/85
*        31.  Updated Copyright Notices in source & in splash screen.
*              (Files:MLI,GLOBALS)
*        32.  Set KVERSION byte in global page to $82.  This version
*             ID byte is interpreted as follows:
*                The low 7 bits contain the ProDOS version number.
*                The high bit is set if this version of ProDOS
*                supports AppleTalk.
*              (Files:GLOBALS)
*        33.  Removed 4 drive install code (see #24 above) to prevent
*             problems with applications.  Some applications would
*             interpret unit numbers as mapping to physical slots.  Thus
*             even though unit numbers may only have a logical mapping,
*             these applications would assume a disk card is in the
*             physical slot.  Therefore if an I/O card is in that slot,
*             the application wouldn't look for it.
*              (File:DEVSRCH)
*
*        34.  Commented out one to many pla's from the dispatcher
*             calling routine.
*              (File:MEMMGR)
*
*        35.  Added an unclaimed (spurious) interrupt handler. It allows
*             255 unclaimed interrupts before going to system death.
*              (File:XDOSMLI)
*
*        36.  Removed low res mode evocation when displaying system
*             death messages.  (It was buggy to begin with and it saves
*             me 6 bytes:lda c083,lda c086).
*             Also removed ability to display system death message
*             without '-ERR xx' as part of the message.  This was done
*             to save space.  The system itself never used this ability
*             and hopefully no one else did either....
*              (Files:XDOSMLI,DATATBLS)
*
*        37.  Since the JSPARE vector in the global page was the only
*             vector to the SYS.RTS routine which will halt the system
*             with an 'INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND RESTART' message), and
*             JSPARE is overwritten by the loader with the dispatcher
*             calling vector, the 6 bytes starting at the SYS.RTS label
*             are now considered free space.
*              (File:GLOBALS)
*
*        38.  Deleted needless code that relocated Atalk drivers twice.
*             Also modified parameters that relocate interrupt file
*             MLI.3.
*              (File:PROLDR)
*
* Ver 1.2xa09 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 5/30/85
*        39.  Fixed bug in dispatcher that would trash screen holes
*             when code is called while in 80 column mode.  (Previously
*             HOME was called without the window size being updated to
*             a 40 column size.  Therefore the wrong BASCALC's were
*             done and zap!).  Now, I call SETTXT before calling home
*             which will set text mode and a 40 column window.
*             I also commented out a lda #0 to reclaim needed space.
*              (File:SEL)
*
*        40.  Made code that zeroed user's index block in his I/O
*             buffer into a subroutine.  Saved 8 bytes.
*              (Files:READ.WRITE,POSN.OPEN)
*
*        41.  Set a flag in the DELETE code to signal the DETREE routine
*             NOT to zero index blocks upon deallocation.  This was done
*             so developers could write file recovery routines.
*              (Files:DESTROY,DETREE,WRKSPACE)
*
* Ver 1.2xa10 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 6/4/85
*        42.  Replaced two lda's and bit's with one sta to hit the bank
*             switches (c083,c08b).  Note: I am counting on the fact
*             that once into ProDOS, the LC is already in a r/w state.
*             Thereafter, you only have to hit the bank switch once to
*             switch banks and maintain a r/w state in the new bank.
*             Also note that this was done to preserve zero flag status
*             upon return from the network drivers.  The previous BIT's
*             would destroy that status.
*              (File:MEMMGR)
*
*        43.  Forced the /RAM driver to return zeros on block read
*             requests to block 7, and do nothing on block writes to
*             block 7.  Previously, a block write to block 7 (an
*             operation that is invalid anyway), would bomb out into
*             the monitor.  Read and writes to blocks 0,1,4,5,6, and
*             now 7 are all treated in this manner.
*              (File:RAM)
*
* Version 1.2xa11 - by Kerry Laidlaw 6/12/85
*        44.  Removed disabling of interrupts from loader.  Therefore
*             the whether the processor allows interrupts or not is
*             left up to the monitor.
*              (File:DEVSRCH)
*
* Version 1.2xa12 - by Kerry Laidlaw 6/21/85
*        45.  Initialized main stack to $ff and set up $101 in Aux
*             memory (if it is there) to $ff so programs using the
*             aux stack will be started off correctly.
*              (File:PROLDR)
*
*        46.  Fixed 2 bugs in XDOSMLI file:
*             1) After processor is pulled to re-enable interrupts,
*                a CLD is now done to keep out of decimal mode.
*             2) Turning "off" MLIACTIVE flag is now done correctly
*                with an ASL after and initial ROR instead of the
*                original LSR.
*
* New version id for fear of version confusion 12/13/85...
* Version 1.2 exp 01 - by Kerry Laidlaw 12/13/85
*        47.  The OPEN call will now return error $4B (unsupported or
*             incorrect storage type) instead of $4A (incompatible file
*             format for this version) when determining if it is legal
*             to open a file of a particular storage type.
*               (File: POSN.OPEN)
*
* Version 1.2 exp 02 - by Kerry Laidlaw 2/3/86
*        48.  Splash screen now shows "PRODOS 8" instead of "PRODOS".
*             Fixed a bug in the read call that would return the
*             incorrect number of bytes transferred when newline was
*             enabled.  If the requested number of bytes was greater
*             than $00FF, AND the number of bytes in the file AFTER the
*             newline character was READ was a multiple of $100, then
*             the number of bytes reported transferred by ProDOS was
*             equal to the correct number of transferred bytes + $100.
*               (Files: DEVSRCH, READ.WRITE)
*
*        49.  Removed fix from rev #41 that prevented index blocks
*             from being zeroed after files were deleted.
*              (Files: DESTROY, DETREE, WRKSPACE)
*
*        50.  Added new clock driver to read the Cortland builtin clock.
*             The loader will now check for a Cortland to decide which
*             clock driver (slot or built-in) to install.
*             Stopped messing with slot 3 rom space if running on a
*             Cortland.  The Control Program lets the user determine
*             internal vs. external slot space.
*             Also commented out bus references in equates file, since
*             it has now been decided that there be no Appletalk drivers
*             in this version of ProDOS8.
*              (Files: EQUATES, PROLDR, CCLOCK)
*
* Version 1.2 exp 03 - by Kerry Laidlaw 2/20/86
*        51.  Updated slot clock driver's year lookup table.
*             The year can now be calculated thru 1991.
*              (File: TCLOCK)
*
* Version 1.2 exp 04 - by Kerry Laidlaw 3/07/86
*        52.  Updated Cortland clock driver to adjust to new
*             miscellaneous toolset call number.
*
* Version 1.2 exp 05 - by Kerry Laidlaw 3/13/86
*        53.  Updated DEVSRCH to special case a Smartport card
*             in slot 5 to allow 4 Smartport units. Driver entry
*             addresses for these Smartport units would be placed in
*             the ProDOS global page's slot 5 and slot 2 driver vectors.
*             ProDOS unit numbers $50 & $D0 (slot 5, drives 1 and 2)
*             will correspond to Smartport units 1 and 2.  ProDOS unit
*             numbers $20 and $A0 (Slot 2 drives 1 and 2), will
*             correspond to Smartport units 3 and 4.
*              (File: DEVSRCH)
*
* Version 1.2 exp 06 - by Kerry Laidlaw 04/03/86
*        54.  Updated Smartport unit special casing (see rev note #53)
*             to ensure the extra two unit numbers to have a $B in
*             the low nibble so the FILER won't have any problems
*             with formatting.  Also set version id byte (KVERSION) in
*             global page to $02 representing version 1.2.
*              (Files: DEVSRCH, GLOBALS)
*
* Version 1.2 D1 - by Kerry Laidlaw 06/22/86
*        55.  Crunched the dispatcher code to make room so the correct
*             soft switches and monitor routines could be called to
*             go to 40 columns and display text.
*              (File: SEL)
*
*        56.  Added feature to loader that will load and JSR to the
*             file "ATINIT" in the booting volume's root directory.
*             If the file is not found, no error is reported, and
*             the ".SYSTEM" file is executed as normal.  But if an
*             I/O error other than file not found is encountered
*             or if the file type is not the ATINIT type of $f8
*             while loading "ATINIT", a fatal error is displayed.
*              (File: PROLDR)
*
*        57.  Added an alternate loader entry point.
*             The new entry is at $2003 and is intended to be called
*             be called only by the network boot code when booting
*             over the net, and by ProDOS 16 v1.0 on the Apple //-16.
*             The loader through this entry point will
*             NOT load the ATINIT file and will NOT load the
*             .SYSTEM file.  It will set up ProDOS and RTS back
*             to the caller to this entry point.
*             Because of this feature, the initialization of the
*             stack done in rev Note #45, was taken out....
*              (File: PROLDR)
*
*        58.  Added code to set MACHID byte to indicate a clock
*             was present when ProDOS is run on an Apple //-16.
*              (File: PROLDR)
*
* Version 1.2A1 - by Kerry Laidlaw 06/30/86
*        59.  ATINIT file official file type now checked for is
*             $E2.
*              (File: PROLDR)
*
* Version 1.2A2 - by Mike Askins   08/25/86
*        60.  The device searching process has changed.  SmartPort
*             devices are only installed if they exist and Disk //s
*             are placed in the device list so that they have the
*             lowest priority in device scans.  This should regularize
*             device numbering and naming in ProDOS/16.  Note that this
*             change caused the loader to grow by 256 bytes, and
*             everything beyond devsrch is moved by one page.
*              (File: DEVSRCH)
*
* Version 1.2B1 - by Mike Askins   08/25/86
*        61.  The loader now passes a flag to Cortland at $FEFF to
*             indicate that we're running on a Cortland.  At system
*             death, if we're on a Cortland, a zero is stuffed into
*             $C029 disabling super hires so that the user can see the
*             system death message.
*              (Files: PROLDR, XDOSMLI, WRKSPACE)
*
*        62.  A parameter os.boot is now passed to Cortland AppleTalk.
*             If it is a stand alone ProDOS/8 (not P8/16 config) a
*             zero is stored in $E100BD.  Two branches had to be
*             extended to accomodate the code which does this (these
*             are marked).
*              (File: PROLDR)
*
*        63.  Two DS directives were altered (" ,0 " added) so that
*             they generated bytes with a fixed value.  Successive
*             builds should now compare byte for byte EXCEPT for the
*             date string (around 1550 decimal into PRODOS file).
*              (File: SEL)
*
*        64.  The logic of the newly added SmartPort handler in the
*             loader has been changed to fix a bug in V1.2A2 which
*             prevents installation of SmartPort devices in any slot
*             OTHER than 5.  The check for slot five was moved down
*             past the installation of drives 1 and/or 2.
*              (File: DEVSRCH)
*
* Version 1.2B2 - by Mike Askins   09/06/86
*        65.  A bug is fixed in the loader which caused disk devices
*            in slot 2 to conflict ungracefully with more than two
*            devices in slot 5.  Now, if any disk device is detected
*            in slot 2, NO MORE THAN 2 units are installed in slot 5.
*             (File: DEVSRCH)
*
*        66.  The Cortland Clock Driver now sets main memory before
*            doing the call to the miscellaneous tools to read the
*            clock hardware.  The main/aux state is then restored.
*
* Version 1.2B3 - by Kerry Laidlaw 09/07/86
*        67. Updated cclock routine to correct the anding of the
*            state register.
*             (File:CCLOCK)
*
* Version 1.2   - by Mike Askins   09/08/86
*        No changes
*
* Version 1.2   - by Mike Askins   09/23/86
*        68. Inserted a patch into RELOC to fix a bug in the 1.0 GS
*            ROM which caused the internal CX ROM space to be left
*            mapped in after a boot failure on SmartPort.  See the
*            documentation in RELOC to find out why the patch was
*            placed here (it has nothing to do with the RELOCation
*            process!).
*
* Version 1.2   - by Kerry Laidlaw 09/23/86
*        69. Fixed a bug in the dispatcher that trashes screen when
*            executed with the prefix set to nil.
*            Previously when an error occured when the pathname
*            was checked, the message at the top of the screen
*            was redisplayed. Now we are jumping so the message
*            is not redisplayed.  It saves us 2 bytes....
*             (File:SEL)
*
* Version 1.3   - by Mike Askins, Fern Bachman - 10/17/86
*        70. The code that resets the phase lines for Disk //s has been
*            changed so that the phase clearing is done with a load, not
*            a store.  Stores to even numbered locations on the disk
*            hardware cause data bus contention which is just not cool.
*            The routine has been changed to access all 8 even locations
*            which not only clears the phases but forces read mode (as
*            well as 1st drive and motor off) on entry to the disk code.
*            DOS used to do this and ProDOS did not.  If for some reason
*            (copy protection, runaway programs) l7 was left high on
*            entry to the disk routines, and the disk routines checked
*            write protect with l6 high:  BINGO -- we're in write mode.
*            Forcing read mode initially leaves less to chance.
*            to assemble ProDOS8 with cross reference tables.
*        71. The file MLI was changed to allow ASM816 version 1.4.2 to
*            allow for cross reference listings to be generated.
*            Assembling the file MLI generates ProDOS8 without listings.
*            Assembling the file L.MLI generates PorDOS8 with a listing.
*            NOTE: A blank RAM disk card called /RAM1 must be installed
*                  in the system to cross references to be generated.
*        72. The 'date' directive was removed in the file DEVSRCH
*            and an ASC 'xx-xxx-xx' directive replaced it.
*
* Version 1.3   - by Ray Chiang   11/07/86
*        73. In reference to rev notes 41 and 49, index blocks now
*            have their contents flipped when the file is deleted
*            and their contents are fully zeroed when EOF cutback
*            occurs.  This technique allows scavenging programs to
*            possibly recover files that were accidently deleted.
*            Also the possibility of unclaimed blocks 'looking'
*            like valid index blocks is reduced.  Previous to this
*            revision, whole index blocks from tree files were
*            being released back into the disk.
*            (files: DESTROY,DETREE,WRKSPACE)
*
* Version 1.3   - by Fern Bachman 11/17/86
*        74. The SmartPort interface card (our Liron interface card)
*            does not set up its device chain unless a ProDOS call
*            is made to it.  Therefore in DEVSRCH where Mike makes
*            SmartPort calls the card is not setup yet so it returns
*            00 devices in its chain.  This results in the card/drives
*            never being seen by ProDOS.  To fix that we will now make
*            a ProDOS status call before SmartPort status calls.  This
*            should guarantee valid device counts.
*            (file: DEVSRCH)
*
* Version 1.4   - by Ray Chiang/Fern Bachman 02/03/87
*        75. Fix illegal 65C02 instruction in 6502 code.  ie change
*            the BRA to a BEQ instruction.
*
* Version 1.4   - by Mike Askins/Fern Bachman 02/12/87
*        76. Changed RSETPHSE routine to only clear the phase lines.
*            And we clear Q7 so no writes can accidently occur.
*
* Version 1.4  - by Ray Chiang/Mike Askins 03/23/87
*        77. Simple programming error in fix 76 .
*
* Version 1.4 - Ray Chiang 04/17/87
*        78. No changes, released to SCM
*
* Version 1.5d1 - Grady Ward 2 Sep 87
*         79.  Fixed overrun problem in READ.WRITE
*              Also, changed p16 patch addresses
*
*         80.  Made call to DEVMGR surrounded by NOP's so that
*              it can be patched by p16 and pquit more easily
*              (for both cache and AppleTalk booting)
*
*
* Version 1.5d7 - Grady Ward 20 Nov 87 Summary of Changes
*         81.  Change to READ.WRITE in tstwprot to disable interrupts
*              if going to use DMGR (Caching)
*
*         82.  P8 code has been extensively moved about to make room
*              for patches to DMGR dispatch (approximately 14 bytes
*              were needed for AppleTalk booting patches caching patches)
*
* Version 1.5d8 4-Dec-87
*
*          83.  Change some asc strings, like "system" uppercase.
*
* Version 1.5d11 20-Jan-88
*
*           84.  Took out $42 generic AppleTalk Call
*
* Version 1.5b2 16-Feb-88
*
*            85.  Restored asl mliactv to lsr in "exitmli"
*
* Version 1.5b3 1-Mar-88
*
*            86. Clear ESC in keyboard if booting on Apple //c
*                ("slow" down for Zip Chip)
* Version 1.6 14-Jun-88
*
*            87. Set up parallel pfixptr to fix
*                AppleTalk PFI misinterpretation
*                of two's comp prefix pointer
*
* Version 1.7 22-July-88
*
*            88.  When setting eof backwards, make sure
*                 volumes bitmaps are counted before inc
*                 free blocks
*
*            89.  When installing ramdisk, make sure slot3rom
*                 is preserved rather than overwritten
*
*            90.  In system death, check "cortflag" rather than
*                 "cortland" to ascertain what system we're on
*
*             91.  Waited to restore slot3 firmware until just before
*                  gquit is called at jspare
*
*             92.  Now permit invisible bit to be set with set file info
*                  (bit 2 of d.attr byte)
*
************************************************************************
*
*
* EdNet v1.0x01 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 6/5/85
*+++++++     The following changes are made to support transparent
*            file access for the AppleTalk network.  This version
*            will be the user (student) stations ProDOS.  It has been
*            decided that this version of ProDOS will only support
*            128k systems.
*
*      EN1.  The RWTS routines are now running in LC, b2 above
*            the dispatcher code ($D400-$DAE9).  To do this the
*            loader was changed to load the RWTS routines into bank 2
*            starting at $d400, and a dummy RWTS entry at $D000 b1,
*            was entered which only does a CLD followed by a JMP $FF90.
*            The routine at $FF90 is at the end of the RAM code file
*            where a few extra bytes were dangling.
* NOTE: FOR ANY FUTURE MAINTAINER of this code.  As of 5/88, all
* ProDOS 8, 16, and BASIC.SYSTEM bugs are archived as ProDOS bug
* in the B.R.C. archive, priority 5.  Please look there before
* making any changes to p8 or p16.  Grady Ward
*
*      EN2.  Modified the block file manager to go to the AppleTalk
*            command when the pathname corresponds to /ATALK.
*            The new DOATALK file will house all the AppleTalk interface
*            command handling.
*            The MLI.BUILD BASIC program was updated to handle 7 more
*            pages of code in the MLI.2 file.
*             (Files:BFMGR,DATATBLS,DOATALK,WRKSPACE)
*
*      EN3.  Changed loader to relocate Atalk drivers to Aux LC.
*            Also changed ATP caller to go thru the "bridge" mechanism.
*            This bridge routine is so named because its purpose is to
*            get an entry address to ATP, FAP etc., as contained in
*            the address table labled ATALKTBL, and jsr to the
*            routine in the Aux LC.  This address table is
*            located at the beginning of the ATP driver file COMMANDS.
*            At load time, this table is copied into space reserved
*            for it in the file XDOSMLI.
*            Also, the ATP interrupt handler has been pre-installed
*            into ProDOS in the file XDOSMLI.
*            The RPM STUB that will be called when characters are
*            written to the AppleTalk card was placed in the file
*            MEMMGR.  The Loader now installs the hooks to the RPM
*            STUB in the AppleTalk card's screen holes.
*             (Files:PROLDR,MEMMGR,XDOSMLI,COMMANDS)
*
******************************************************



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From gregp at n0qds.org  Sun May  2 12:43:22 2010
From: gregp at n0qds.org (Greg Putrich)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 11:43:22 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple II ProDOS source
In-Reply-To: <C4E7A83D-C24C-4B6A-AC03-0486A150583C@cybermesa.com>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
	<1F07509F-C1D2-4286-BFFD-A22A0777EF97@n0qds.org>	<41AA03E6-C659-4887-91E4-D5D102E9E119@ti.com>
	<4BDC6CAB.4070800@brouhaha.com>
	<C4E7A83D-C24C-4B6A-AC03-0486A150583C@cybermesa.com>
Message-ID: <01774B51-4093-4031-8F56-B04BBF1CA601@n0qds.org>

This is great!

I was trying to boot 1.1.1 and I think 2.0.4. Will have to scrounge around and see if I have 1.0 - 1.0.2A01, but I doubt it.

   Greg




On May 2, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Shirl Casner wrote:

> 
> Hello,
> 
> On May 1, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> 
>> On 04/29/2010 05:57 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>>> I think Prodos needs the language card to work, so you are missing 
>>> some kB in the 48k Apple ][ mode.
> 
>> ProDOS 1.0 will boot on a 48K Apple II.
> 
> Some comments about ProDOS.
> 
> - David Craig
> 
> ---
> 
> APPLE II PRODOS MEMORY REQUIREMENTS
> 
> I do recall that the original Apple II ProDOS ran on an Apple II with 48KB of RAM, but believe subsequent versions only supported the 64KB Apple II machines. After the Apple IIe system with 64KB RAM became dominant I believe Apple changed ProDOS. I checked into this a little closer and found the following.
> 
> The ProDOS source contains the following comment which indicates ProDOS 1.0.2A02 (April 1984) no longer supported 48KB Apple II machines:
> 
> 	"Removed support for boot in 48K machines"
> 
> Source file SRC.PROLDR (ProDOS Loader) includes this memory test:
> 
> *********** branch widened- see rev note #62 ***********
>                 bne          nogood0                   ;hitch to hitch
>                 lda          romin
>                 jsr          whchrom                   ;get preliminary system configuration
>                 bcs          m48k                      ;branch if apple /// emulation
>                 lda          apple                     ;test for 48k configuration
>                 and          #$20                      ;by testing for 64k plus.
>                 bne          m64k                      ;branch if >48k
> m48k            jmp          nogood                    ;must have at least 64k
> 
> ---
> 
> APPLE II PRODOS SUPPORT FOR APPLE III SOS BOOTING
> 
> ProDOS also supported booting on an Apple III. The ProDOS boot disk contained in block 1 (the second block) the Apple III SOS boot loader. Block 0 contained the ProDOS boot loader. Page 93 of the ProDOS PDF source listing in section titled "sos system boot 1.1" describes ProDOS' dual botting nature.
> 
> Page 86 of the ProDOS source PDF listing has the following to say about this BOOTING:
> 
> * prodos universal boot loader.  this is the second stage boot
> *   for all apple manufactured apple ii disk drives.
> * it is located at block zero (0) of a prodos or sos formatted
> *   disk(ette).  if booted in apple /// native mode, the regular
> *   sos boot will be attempted.
> 
> Apple's Apple II ProDOS 8 Technical Reference Manual also discusses this in Appendix C: "ProDOS, the Apple III, and SOS":
> 
> As explained earlier in the manual, blocks 0 and 1 of a ProDOS-formatted disk contain the boot code -- the code that reads the operating system from the disk and runs it. Not explained was that this boot code runs on either an Apple II or an Apple III.
> 
> When you start up either an Apple II or an Apple III system with a ProDOS disk, the boot code is loaded at $800, and executed. The first thing it does is look to see whether it is running on an Apple II or Apple III. If it is running on an Apple II, it tries to load in the file PRODOS. If it is running on an Apple III, it tries to load in the file SOS.KERNEL. In either case, if the proper file is not found, it displays the appropriate error message.
> 
> This means that two versions of an application could be written, one for the Apple II, the other for the Apple III, and packaged together on the same disk. This single disk could be sold to both Apple II and Apple III owners.
> ---
> 
> APPLE II PRODOS VERSION 1.7 SOURCE LISTING
> 
> For those with an interest in the source to ProDOS, I have a copy. As the successor to Apple III SOS, this listing is interesting since it shows what parts of SOS were included (file system) in ProDOS and which parts were excluded (memory management, device management, interrupt management).
> 
> I have the source for ProDOS 1.7 dated 1988. The source is both in multiple text files and also a single PDF file (329 pages long).
> 
> There is an interesting modification history listing of ProDOS starting on page 255 of the PDF listing titled 'MLI Revision History'. It is interesting to note the people involved in ProDOS' development:
> 
> 	J.R. "Dick" Huston	1.0
> 	Dale M. Arends		1.0 - 1.2
> 	Kerry Laidlaw		1.2 & the Education Network (EdNet) version
> 	Mike Askins		1.2 - 1.4
> 	Fern Bachman 		1.3 - 1.4
> 	Ray Chiang		1.3 - 1.4
> 	Grady Ward		1.5 - 1.7
> 
> Apple tracked ProDOS changes using revision note entries in the source listing which contained "rev note #X". Each revision was assigned a unique revision number which was listed in the version history with a description of the revision.
> 
> Here is the version history for ProDOS 1.0 (December 1983) to 1.7 (July 1988) ...
> 
>                 SBTL         'MLI Revision History'
> ******************************************************************
> *                                                                *
> *                       C A U T I O N S                          *
> *                                                                *
> * 1.  In the language card area, the $D000 areas overlay.  To    *
> *     determine which bank is in requires that the main bank     *
> *     has a CLD instruction ($D8) at location $D000 and the      *
> *     alternate bank must not.                                   *
> *                                                                *
> * 2.  Location $E000 is used to determine the state of ROM vs.   *
> *     language card.  Therefore, the values of $E000 in the MLI  *
> *     and in the ROM MUST differ.                                *
> *                                                                *
> * 3.  In the file MEMMGR, the routines CALLDISP, RAMDRVR and     *
> *     DOBUS each must access the other $D000 bank.  Therefore,   *
> *     they MUST reside ABOVE $E000 in the language card area.    *
> *                                                                *
> * 4.  In order to tell the difference between a Disk II with a   *
> *     DEVID of 0 and a Ram-based driver with a DEVID of 0, the   *
> *     Disk II routines MUST start on a page boundary and the     *
> *     ram-based driver caller (routine RAMDRVR in file MEMMGR)   *
> *     MUST NOT start on a page boundary.                         *
> *                                                                *
> * 5.  In the ram disk driver (file RAM), the byte that assembles *
> *     into location $FF58 MUST be a $60 (RTS) so that the usual  *
> *     routine to determine an I/O card's slot (by JSR $FF58)     *
> *     will still work even if the Language card is switched in.  *
> *                                                                *
> * 6.  RWTS calling routine at $FF90 is hard coded at that        *
> *     address.  If /RAM driver moves or expands, the routine     *
> *     must be moved and the dummy RWTS entry routine in XDOSMLI  *
> *     must be changed.                                           *
> *                                                                *
> * 7.  If the ram disk driver is to be moved (to make room more   *
> *     code), the value of the symbol Srce must be updated to     *
> *     reflect the change.  It is found in the file 'RAM' and     *
> *     should point to where the basic builder 'build.prodos'     *
> *     loads the RAM driver into memory.                          *
> *                                                                *
> * 8.  Any changes in the size of PRODOS/8 must be accompanied    *
> *     by changes in P/16 load information... the size is hard    *
> *     coded there.                                               *
> *                                                                *
> * 9.  WARNING!  There are at least four absolute patches in p8   *
> *     from pquit and p16.  (1) Pquit "CallDisp" about p8 FCE3    *
> *     (2) P16 ChangePath "TOTENT" about p8 FE8A                  *
> *     (3) P16 Entry/IsItOpen about p16 96fc about p8 EFA3        *
> *     "TSTOPEN"  (4) Pquit's PLOADER direct patch into p8's      *
> *     block READ/WRITE dispatch "godev"                          *
> *     All of these must be looked at if there are any changes to *
> *     p8.                                                        *
> *                                                                *
> ******************************************************************
>                 PAGE
> ******************************************************************
> *
> * NOTE: After each revision is made, the splash screen and the value
> *       of KVERSION in the Global Page must be updated to reflect the
> *
> * Ver 1.0 - Written by J.R. Huston
> *         - Updated and released by Dale M. Arends, Dec. 1983
> *
> * Ver 1.0.1 - by Dale M. Arends, January 1, 1984
> *         1.  Bug in status call when testing write protect fixed.
> *               (File: READ.WRITE)
> *
> * Ver 1.0.1A01 - Dale M. Arends, January 20, 1984
> *         2.  Force FLUSH of FCB after EOF cutback.
> *               (File: CLOSE.EOF)
> *
> * Ver 1.0.2 - Dale M. Arends, February 7, 1984
> *         3.  Replace LDAs with BITs in Interrupt entry area of
> *             Global page so it won't destroy Accumulator.
> *               (Files: GLOBALS)
> *         4.  Fixed bug in Disk core routines so that motor is
> *             certain to shut off after recal on an error.
> *               (File: XRW1)
> *
> * Ver 1.0.2A01 - Dale M. Arends, February 13, 1984
> *         5.  Rearranged MLI layout within Language Card.
> *               (All Files Affected)
> *         6.  Rearranged entry to XRW routines to make room for
> *             a CLD as first byte.  This is necessary since XRW
> *             routines are now at $D000 and the CLD flags bank as
> *             Main $D000 space.  Also added check for valid call
> *             number (0-3).  (Both XRW files affected.)
> *
> * Ver 1.0.2A02 - Dale M. Arends, April 4, 1984
> *         7.  Rewrote machine ID routine to allow for Phylums of
> *             machines.    Ranges:  0n - //c
> *                                   4n - ???
> *               (File: PROLDR)      8n - ???
> *                                   En - //e
> *
> *         8.  Removed support for boot in 48K machines.
> *               (File: PROLDR)
> *
> * Ver 1.1XA01 - Dale M. Arends, May 3, 1984
> *         9.  Modified Interrupt routine to allow for new ROMs in //c
> *             and //e machines.
> *               (Files: PROLDR, EQUATES, GLOBALS, XDOSMLI)
> *        10.  Removed check for OS version number in file OPEN routine.
> *               (File: POSN.OPEN)
> *        11.  Incremented KVERSION number in Global page.
> *               (Files: GLOBALS)
> *        12.  Modified DEVSRCH routine to correctly reflect the
> *             presence of any 80-col card following established
> *             signature byte protocol.
> *               (File: DEVSRCH)
> *
> * Ver 1.1XA02 - Dale M. Arends, May 11, 1984
> *        13.  Added routine to allow for firmware in slot 3 to be
> *             enabled. In //e, internal $C300 firmware is enabled
> *             if no ROM in slot 3.  This is necessary for interrupts
> *             and BRKs to work.  NOTE: any ROMs in slot 3 MUST support
> *             the 80-column interrupt and BRK entry points or an
> *             interupt or BRK will cause a system hang.
> *               (File: PROLDR)
> *        14.  Added routine to turn off all disk motor phases prior
> *             to SEEKing a track on a Disk II call.
> *               (File: XRW2)
> *
> * Ver 1.1XA02 renamed Ver 1.1 - Dale M. Arends, June 14, 1984
> *
> * Ver 1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 7-19-84)
> *        15.  Added routine for accessing user installed drivers
> *             located in AUX Language Card.
> *               (Files: PROLDR, MEMMGR)
> * Ver 1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 08-17-84)
> *        16.  Added work-around for bug when accessing /RAM after it
> *             has been removed from DEVLST.
> *               (File: NEWFNDVOL)
> *        17.  Reduced the RAM DISK by 1 block to protect the interrupt
> *             vector area of the Aux Language Card.  Interrupt vectors
> *             installed in the Aux Language Card at boot time.
> *               (File: RAM, PROLDR)
> *
> * Ver 1.1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 9-18-84)
> *        18.  Fixed routine in RSETPHSE to map into Drive 1.
> *               (File: XRW2)
> *        19.  Rewrote Machine ID routine to give I/O precedence to
> *             an identifiable 80-column card in Slot 3.
> *               (File: PROLDR)  (See #12 above.)
> *
> * Ver 1.2XA01 - by Dale M. Arends - 10/3/84
> *        20.  Added MLI Call for AppleBus and driver calling code.
> *              (Files: EQUATES, PROLDR, XDOSMLI, MEMMGR, DATATBLS)
> *        21.  Fixed bug in error return of Ram Disk Driver.
> *              (File: RAM)
> *        22.  Assigned a SYSTEM ERROR when error occurs in deallocating
> *             blocks from a TREE file.
> *              (File: DETREE)
> *        23.  Fixed bug in zeroing of a VCB when trying reallocating
> *             a previously used VCB.
> *              (File: NEWFNDVOL)
> *        24.  Modified Loader to automatically install up to 4 drives if
> *             the Smart Driver follows the defined $CnFE bit protocol.
> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
> *        25.  Modified MLI entry routines to disable interrupts until
> *             after MLIACTV flag is set and CMDADR is set up.
> *             (Note: change is not noted in source code.)
> *              (Files: GLOBALS, XDOSMLI)
> *
> * Ver 1.2XA02 - Lost in the Wilds of the San Jose Triangle.
> *        (Go to the Bermuda Triangle and turn left.)
> *
> * Ver 1.2XA03 - by Dale M. Arends - 1/24/85
> *        26.  Modified Dispatcher to treat the DELETE key as a
> *              Back Space (Left Arrow).
> *              (File: SEL)
> *
> * Ver 1.2XA04 - by Dale M. Arends - 1/28/85
> *        27.  Modified splash screen to reflect version control loss.
> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
> *
> * Ver 1.2XA05 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 2/11/85
> *        28.  Modified the ONLINE call to zero out a VCB corresponding
> *             to a disconnected device.  Previously if a user followed
> *             our method on disconnecting a device by removing the
> *             volume's device number in the device list, and removing
> *             the device handler's address from the device vector table,
> *             ProDOS never removed the corresponding VCB entry.  Now
> *             in addition to the above, the user can then issue a
> *             specific ONLINE call to the user disconnected device.  A
> *             no device connected error ($28) will be returned in the
> *             accumulator, but the VCB will be taken off line.
> *              (File: BFMGR)
> *
> * Ver 1.2XA06 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 3/20/85
> *        29.  Fixed bug in PROLDR file that did not swap back correct
> *             bank.
> *              (File:PROLDR)
> *        30.  Added the "real" AppleTalk drivers that will reside in
> *             bank 2, $D400-$DFFF, in the Main Language Card.
> *              (File:BUS)
> *
> * Ver 1.2xa08 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 5/15/85
> *        31.  Updated Copyright Notices in source & in splash screen.
> *              (Files:MLI,GLOBALS)
> *        32.  Set KVERSION byte in global page to $82.  This version
> *             ID byte is interpreted as follows:
> *                The low 7 bits contain the ProDOS version number.
> *                The high bit is set if this version of ProDOS
> *                supports AppleTalk.
> *              (Files:GLOBALS)
> *        33.  Removed 4 drive install code (see #24 above) to prevent
> *             problems with applications.  Some applications would
> *             interpret unit numbers as mapping to physical slots.  Thus
> *             even though unit numbers may only have a logical mapping,
> *             these applications would assume a disk card is in the
> *             physical slot.  Therefore if an I/O card is in that slot,
> *             the application wouldn't look for it.
> *              (File:DEVSRCH)
> *
> *        34.  Commented out one to many pla's from the dispatcher
> *             calling routine.
> *              (File:MEMMGR)
> *
> *        35.  Added an unclaimed (spurious) interrupt handler. It allows
> *             255 unclaimed interrupts before going to system death.
> *              (File:XDOSMLI)
> *
> *        36.  Removed low res mode evocation when displaying system
> *             death messages.  (It was buggy to begin with and it saves
> *             me 6 bytes:lda c083,lda c086).
> *             Also removed ability to display system death message
> *             without '-ERR xx' as part of the message.  This was done
> *             to save space.  The system itself never used this ability
> *             and hopefully no one else did either....
> *              (Files:XDOSMLI,DATATBLS)
> *
> *        37.  Since the JSPARE vector in the global page was the only
> *             vector to the SYS.RTS routine which will halt the system
> *             with an 'INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND RESTART' message), and
> *             JSPARE is overwritten by the loader with the dispatcher
> *             calling vector, the 6 bytes starting at the SYS.RTS label
> *             are now considered free space.
> *              (File:GLOBALS)
> *
> *        38.  Deleted needless code that relocated Atalk drivers twice.
> *             Also modified parameters that relocate interrupt file
> *             MLI.3.
> *              (File:PROLDR)
> *
> * Ver 1.2xa09 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 5/30/85
> *        39.  Fixed bug in dispatcher that would trash screen holes
> *             when code is called while in 80 column mode.  (Previously
> *             HOME was called without the window size being updated to
> *             a 40 column size.  Therefore the wrong BASCALC's were
> *             done and zap!).  Now, I call SETTXT before calling home
> *             which will set text mode and a 40 column window.
> *             I also commented out a lda #0 to reclaim needed space.
> *              (File:SEL)
> *
> *        40.  Made code that zeroed user's index block in his I/O
> *             buffer into a subroutine.  Saved 8 bytes.
> *              (Files:READ.WRITE,POSN.OPEN)
> *
> *        41.  Set a flag in the DELETE code to signal the DETREE routine
> *             NOT to zero index blocks upon deallocation.  This was done
> *             so developers could write file recovery routines.
> *              (Files:DESTROY,DETREE,WRKSPACE)
> *
> * Ver 1.2xa10 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 6/4/85
> *        42.  Replaced two lda's and bit's with one sta to hit the bank
> *             switches (c083,c08b).  Note: I am counting on the fact
> *             that once into ProDOS, the LC is already in a r/w state.
> *             Thereafter, you only have to hit the bank switch once to
> *             switch banks and maintain a r/w state in the new bank.
> *             Also note that this was done to preserve zero flag status
> *             upon return from the network drivers.  The previous BIT's
> *             would destroy that status.
> *              (File:MEMMGR)
> *
> *        43.  Forced the /RAM driver to return zeros on block read
> *             requests to block 7, and do nothing on block writes to
> *             block 7.  Previously, a block write to block 7 (an
> *             operation that is invalid anyway), would bomb out into
> *             the monitor.  Read and writes to blocks 0,1,4,5,6, and
> *             now 7 are all treated in this manner.
> *              (File:RAM)
> *
> * Version 1.2xa11 - by Kerry Laidlaw 6/12/85
> *        44.  Removed disabling of interrupts from loader.  Therefore
> *             the whether the processor allows interrupts or not is
> *             left up to the monitor.
> *              (File:DEVSRCH)
> *
> * Version 1.2xa12 - by Kerry Laidlaw 6/21/85
> *        45.  Initialized main stack to $ff and set up $101 in Aux
> *             memory (if it is there) to $ff so programs using the
> *             aux stack will be started off correctly.
> *              (File:PROLDR)
> *
> *        46.  Fixed 2 bugs in XDOSMLI file:
> *             1) After processor is pulled to re-enable interrupts,
> *                a CLD is now done to keep out of decimal mode.
> *             2) Turning "off" MLIACTIVE flag is now done correctly
> *                with an ASL after and initial ROR instead of the
> *                original LSR.
> *
> * New version id for fear of version confusion 12/13/85...
> * Version 1.2 exp 01 - by Kerry Laidlaw 12/13/85
> *        47.  The OPEN call will now return error $4B (unsupported or
> *             incorrect storage type) instead of $4A (incompatible file
> *             format for this version) when determining if it is legal
> *             to open a file of a particular storage type.
> *               (File: POSN.OPEN)
> *
> * Version 1.2 exp 02 - by Kerry Laidlaw 2/3/86
> *        48.  Splash screen now shows "PRODOS 8" instead of "PRODOS".
> *             Fixed a bug in the read call that would return the
> *             incorrect number of bytes transferred when newline was
> *             enabled.  If the requested number of bytes was greater
> *             than $00FF, AND the number of bytes in the file AFTER the
> *             newline character was READ was a multiple of $100, then
> *             the number of bytes reported transferred by ProDOS was
> *             equal to the correct number of transferred bytes + $100.
> *               (Files: DEVSRCH, READ.WRITE)
> *
> *        49.  Removed fix from rev #41 that prevented index blocks
> *             from being zeroed after files were deleted.
> *              (Files: DESTROY, DETREE, WRKSPACE)
> *
> *        50.  Added new clock driver to read the Cortland builtin clock.
> *             The loader will now check for a Cortland to decide which
> *             clock driver (slot or built-in) to install.
> *             Stopped messing with slot 3 rom space if running on a
> *             Cortland.  The Control Program lets the user determine
> *             internal vs. external slot space.
> *             Also commented out bus references in equates file, since
> *             it has now been decided that there be no Appletalk drivers
> *             in this version of ProDOS8.
> *              (Files: EQUATES, PROLDR, CCLOCK)
> *
> * Version 1.2 exp 03 - by Kerry Laidlaw 2/20/86
> *        51.  Updated slot clock driver's year lookup table.
> *             The year can now be calculated thru 1991.
> *              (File: TCLOCK)
> *
> * Version 1.2 exp 04 - by Kerry Laidlaw 3/07/86
> *        52.  Updated Cortland clock driver to adjust to new
> *             miscellaneous toolset call number.
> *
> * Version 1.2 exp 05 - by Kerry Laidlaw 3/13/86
> *        53.  Updated DEVSRCH to special case a Smartport card
> *             in slot 5 to allow 4 Smartport units. Driver entry
> *             addresses for these Smartport units would be placed in
> *             the ProDOS global page's slot 5 and slot 2 driver vectors.
> *             ProDOS unit numbers $50 & $D0 (slot 5, drives 1 and 2)
> *             will correspond to Smartport units 1 and 2.  ProDOS unit
> *             numbers $20 and $A0 (Slot 2 drives 1 and 2), will
> *             correspond to Smartport units 3 and 4.
> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
> *
> * Version 1.2 exp 06 - by Kerry Laidlaw 04/03/86
> *        54.  Updated Smartport unit special casing (see rev note #53)
> *             to ensure the extra two unit numbers to have a $B in
> *             the low nibble so the FILER won't have any problems
> *             with formatting.  Also set version id byte (KVERSION) in
> *             global page to $02 representing version 1.2.
> *              (Files: DEVSRCH, GLOBALS)
> *
> * Version 1.2 D1 - by Kerry Laidlaw 06/22/86
> *        55.  Crunched the dispatcher code to make room so the correct
> *             soft switches and monitor routines could be called to
> *             go to 40 columns and display text.
> *              (File: SEL)
> *
> *        56.  Added feature to loader that will load and JSR to the
> *             file "ATINIT" in the booting volume's root directory.
> *             If the file is not found, no error is reported, and
> *             the ".SYSTEM" file is executed as normal.  But if an
> *             I/O error other than file not found is encountered
> *             or if the file type is not the ATINIT type of $f8
> *             while loading "ATINIT", a fatal error is displayed.
> *              (File: PROLDR)
> *
> *        57.  Added an alternate loader entry point.
> *             The new entry is at $2003 and is intended to be called
> *             be called only by the network boot code when booting
> *             over the net, and by ProDOS 16 v1.0 on the Apple //-16.
> *             The loader through this entry point will
> *             NOT load the ATINIT file and will NOT load the
> *             .SYSTEM file.  It will set up ProDOS and RTS back
> *             to the caller to this entry point.
> *             Because of this feature, the initialization of the
> *             stack done in rev Note #45, was taken out....
> *              (File: PROLDR)
> *
> *        58.  Added code to set MACHID byte to indicate a clock
> *             was present when ProDOS is run on an Apple //-16.
> *              (File: PROLDR)
> *
> * Version 1.2A1 - by Kerry Laidlaw 06/30/86
> *        59.  ATINIT file official file type now checked for is
> *             $E2.
> *              (File: PROLDR)
> *
> * Version 1.2A2 - by Mike Askins   08/25/86
> *        60.  The device searching process has changed.  SmartPort
> *             devices are only installed if they exist and Disk //s
> *             are placed in the device list so that they have the
> *             lowest priority in device scans.  This should regularize
> *             device numbering and naming in ProDOS/16.  Note that this
> *             change caused the loader to grow by 256 bytes, and
> *             everything beyond devsrch is moved by one page.
> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
> *
> * Version 1.2B1 - by Mike Askins   08/25/86
> *        61.  The loader now passes a flag to Cortland at $FEFF to
> *             indicate that we're running on a Cortland.  At system
> *             death, if we're on a Cortland, a zero is stuffed into
> *             $C029 disabling super hires so that the user can see the
> *             system death message.
> *              (Files: PROLDR, XDOSMLI, WRKSPACE)
> *
> *        62.  A parameter os.boot is now passed to Cortland AppleTalk.
> *             If it is a stand alone ProDOS/8 (not P8/16 config) a
> *             zero is stored in $E100BD.  Two branches had to be
> *             extended to accomodate the code which does this (these
> *             are marked).
> *              (File: PROLDR)
> *
> *        63.  Two DS directives were altered (" ,0 " added) so that
> *             they generated bytes with a fixed value.  Successive
> *             builds should now compare byte for byte EXCEPT for the
> *             date string (around 1550 decimal into PRODOS file).
> *              (File: SEL)
> *
> *        64.  The logic of the newly added SmartPort handler in the
> *             loader has been changed to fix a bug in V1.2A2 which
> *             prevents installation of SmartPort devices in any slot
> *             OTHER than 5.  The check for slot five was moved down
> *             past the installation of drives 1 and/or 2.
> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
> *
> * Version 1.2B2 - by Mike Askins   09/06/86
> *        65.  A bug is fixed in the loader which caused disk devices
> *            in slot 2 to conflict ungracefully with more than two
> *            devices in slot 5.  Now, if any disk device is detected
> *            in slot 2, NO MORE THAN 2 units are installed in slot 5.
> *             (File: DEVSRCH)
> *
> *        66.  The Cortland Clock Driver now sets main memory before
> *            doing the call to the miscellaneous tools to read the
> *            clock hardware.  The main/aux state is then restored.
> *
> * Version 1.2B3 - by Kerry Laidlaw 09/07/86
> *        67. Updated cclock routine to correct the anding of the
> *            state register.
> *             (File:CCLOCK)
> *
> * Version 1.2   - by Mike Askins   09/08/86
> *        No changes
> *
> * Version 1.2   - by Mike Askins   09/23/86
> *        68. Inserted a patch into RELOC to fix a bug in the 1.0 GS
> *            ROM which caused the internal CX ROM space to be left
> *            mapped in after a boot failure on SmartPort.  See the
> *            documentation in RELOC to find out why the patch was
> *            placed here (it has nothing to do with the RELOCation
> *            process!).
> *
> * Version 1.2   - by Kerry Laidlaw 09/23/86
> *        69. Fixed a bug in the dispatcher that trashes screen when
> *            executed with the prefix set to nil.
> *            Previously when an error occured when the pathname
> *            was checked, the message at the top of the screen
> *            was redisplayed. Now we are jumping so the message
> *            is not redisplayed.  It saves us 2 bytes....
> *             (File:SEL)
> *
> * Version 1.3   - by Mike Askins, Fern Bachman - 10/17/86
> *        70. The code that resets the phase lines for Disk //s has been
> *            changed so that the phase clearing is done with a load, not
> *            a store.  Stores to even numbered locations on the disk
> *            hardware cause data bus contention which is just not cool.
> *            The routine has been changed to access all 8 even locations
> *            which not only clears the phases but forces read mode (as
> *            well as 1st drive and motor off) on entry to the disk code.
> *            DOS used to do this and ProDOS did not.  If for some reason
> *            (copy protection, runaway programs) l7 was left high on
> *            entry to the disk routines, and the disk routines checked
> *            write protect with l6 high:  BINGO -- we're in write mode.
> *            Forcing read mode initially leaves less to chance.
> *            to assemble ProDOS8 with cross reference tables.
> *        71. The file MLI was changed to allow ASM816 version 1.4.2 to
> *            allow for cross reference listings to be generated.
> *            Assembling the file MLI generates ProDOS8 without listings.
> *            Assembling the file L.MLI generates PorDOS8 with a listing.
> *            NOTE: A blank RAM disk card called /RAM1 must be installed
> *                  in the system to cross references to be generated.
> *        72. The 'date' directive was removed in the file DEVSRCH
> *            and an ASC 'xx-xxx-xx' directive replaced it.
> *
> * Version 1.3   - by Ray Chiang   11/07/86
> *        73. In reference to rev notes 41 and 49, index blocks now
> *            have their contents flipped when the file is deleted
> *            and their contents are fully zeroed when EOF cutback
> *            occurs.  This technique allows scavenging programs to
> *            possibly recover files that were accidently deleted.
> *            Also the possibility of unclaimed blocks 'looking'
> *            like valid index blocks is reduced.  Previous to this
> *            revision, whole index blocks from tree files were
> *            being released back into the disk.
> *            (files: DESTROY,DETREE,WRKSPACE)
> *
> * Version 1.3   - by Fern Bachman 11/17/86
> *        74. The SmartPort interface card (our Liron interface card)
> *            does not set up its device chain unless a ProDOS call
> *            is made to it.  Therefore in DEVSRCH where Mike makes
> *            SmartPort calls the card is not setup yet so it returns
> *            00 devices in its chain.  This results in the card/drives
> *            never being seen by ProDOS.  To fix that we will now make
> *            a ProDOS status call before SmartPort status calls.  This
> *            should guarantee valid device counts.
> *            (file: DEVSRCH)
> *
> * Version 1.4   - by Ray Chiang/Fern Bachman 02/03/87
> *        75. Fix illegal 65C02 instruction in 6502 code.  ie change
> *            the BRA to a BEQ instruction.
> *
> * Version 1.4   - by Mike Askins/Fern Bachman 02/12/87
> *        76. Changed RSETPHSE routine to only clear the phase lines.
> *            And we clear Q7 so no writes can accidently occur.
> *
> * Version 1.4  - by Ray Chiang/Mike Askins 03/23/87
> *        77. Simple programming error in fix 76 .
> *
> * Version 1.4 - Ray Chiang 04/17/87
> *        78. No changes, released to SCM
> *
> * Version 1.5d1 - Grady Ward 2 Sep 87
> *         79.  Fixed overrun problem in READ.WRITE
> *              Also, changed p16 patch addresses
> *
> *         80.  Made call to DEVMGR surrounded by NOP's so that
> *              it can be patched by p16 and pquit more easily
> *              (for both cache and AppleTalk booting)
> *
> *
> * Version 1.5d7 - Grady Ward 20 Nov 87 Summary of Changes
> *         81.  Change to READ.WRITE in tstwprot to disable interrupts
> *              if going to use DMGR (Caching)
> *
> *         82.  P8 code has been extensively moved about to make room
> *              for patches to DMGR dispatch (approximately 14 bytes
> *              were needed for AppleTalk booting patches caching patches)
> *
> * Version 1.5d8 4-Dec-87
> *
> *          83.  Change some asc strings, like "system" uppercase.
> *
> * Version 1.5d11 20-Jan-88
> *
> *           84.  Took out $42 generic AppleTalk Call
> *
> * Version 1.5b2 16-Feb-88
> *
> *            85.  Restored asl mliactv to lsr in "exitmli"
> *
> * Version 1.5b3 1-Mar-88
> *
> *            86. Clear ESC in keyboard if booting on Apple //c
> *                ("slow" down for Zip Chip)
> * Version 1.6 14-Jun-88
> *
> *            87. Set up parallel pfixptr to fix
> *                AppleTalk PFI misinterpretation
> *                of two's comp prefix pointer
> *
> * Version 1.7 22-July-88
> *
> *            88.  When setting eof backwards, make sure
> *                 volumes bitmaps are counted before inc
> *                 free blocks
> *
> *            89.  When installing ramdisk, make sure slot3rom
> *                 is preserved rather than overwritten
> *
> *            90.  In system death, check "cortflag" rather than
> *                 "cortland" to ascertain what system we're on
> *
> *             91.  Waited to restore slot3 firmware until just before
> *                  gquit is called at jspare
> *
> *             92.  Now permit invisible bit to be set with set file info
> *                  (bit 2 of d.attr byte)
> *
> ************************************************************************
> *
> *
> * EdNet v1.0x01 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 6/5/85
> *+++++++     The following changes are made to support transparent
> *            file access for the AppleTalk network.  This version
> *            will be the user (student) stations ProDOS.  It has been
> *            decided that this version of ProDOS will only support
> *            128k systems.
> *
> *      EN1.  The RWTS routines are now running in LC, b2 above
> *            the dispatcher code ($D400-$DAE9).  To do this the
> *            loader was changed to load the RWTS routines into bank 2
> *            starting at $d400, and a dummy RWTS entry at $D000 b1,
> *            was entered which only does a CLD followed by a JMP $FF90.
> *            The routine at $FF90 is at the end of the RAM code file
> *            where a few extra bytes were dangling.
> * NOTE: FOR ANY FUTURE MAINTAINER of this code.  As of 5/88, all
> * ProDOS 8, 16, and BASIC.SYSTEM bugs are archived as ProDOS bug
> * in the B.R.C. archive, priority 5.  Please look there before
> * making any changes to p8 or p16.  Grady Ward
> *
> *      EN2.  Modified the block file manager to go to the AppleTalk
> *            command when the pathname corresponds to /ATALK.
> *            The new DOATALK file will house all the AppleTalk interface
> *            command handling.
> *            The MLI.BUILD BASIC program was updated to handle 7 more
> *            pages of code in the MLI.2 file.
> *             (Files:BFMGR,DATATBLS,DOATALK,WRKSPACE)
> *
> *      EN3.  Changed loader to relocate Atalk drivers to Aux LC.
> *            Also changed ATP caller to go thru the "bridge" mechanism.
> *            This bridge routine is so named because its purpose is to
> *            get an entry address to ATP, FAP etc., as contained in
> *            the address table labled ATALKTBL, and jsr to the
> *            routine in the Aux LC.  This address table is
> *            located at the beginning of the ATP driver file COMMANDS.
> *            At load time, this table is copied into space reserved
> *            for it in the file XDOSMLI.
> *            Also, the ATP interrupt handler has been pre-installed
> *            into ProDOS in the file XDOSMLI.
> *            The RPM STUB that will be called when characters are
> *            written to the AppleTalk card was placed in the file
> *            MEMMGR.  The Loader now installs the hooks to the RPM
> *            STUB in the AppleTalk card's screen holes.
> *             (Files:PROLDR,MEMMGR,XDOSMLI,COMMANDS)
> *
> ******************************************************
> 
> 
> 
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From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Sun May  2 17:40:46 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 16:40:46 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple II ProDOS source
In-Reply-To: <01774B51-4093-4031-8F56-B04BBF1CA601@n0qds.org>
References: <96A9A0FB-111E-4064-9117-E45AD4EAAFB6@cybermesa.com>
	<7D11B773-38B6-4B96-A3C2-BCA3A637C7AD@cybermesa.com>
	<CE753960-3422-4055-96EB-D075C3C409B3@die-kempers.de>
	<1F07509F-C1D2-4286-BFFD-A22A0777EF97@n0qds.org>	<41AA03E6-C659-4887-91E4-D5D102E9E119@ti.com>
	<4BDC6CAB.4070800@brouhaha.com>
	<C4E7A83D-C24C-4B6A-AC03-0486A150583C@cybermesa.com>
	<01774B51-4093-4031-8F56-B04BBF1CA601@n0qds.org>
Message-ID: <5CCD2D8E-806C-4768-BE9D-D9B70E7A6AA9@die-kempers.de>

I knew that the higher revisions of prodos would not run on a bare-bone 48k System.
I tried my lowest revision number which is 1.1.1 and that did not work.

If someone has a 1.0 version , please create a .dsk and make it available.

I would like to see it booting on a ///


On May 2, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Greg Putrich wrote:

> This is great!
> 
> I was trying to boot 1.1.1 and I think 2.0.4. Will have to scrounge around and see if I have 1.0 - 1.0.2A01, but I doubt it.
> 
>   Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 2, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Shirl Casner wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> On May 1, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>> 
>>> On 04/29/2010 05:57 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>>>> I think Prodos needs the language card to work, so you are missing 
>>>> some kB in the 48k Apple ][ mode.
>> 
>>> ProDOS 1.0 will boot on a 48K Apple II.
>> 
>> Some comments about ProDOS.
>> 
>> - David Craig
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> APPLE II PRODOS MEMORY REQUIREMENTS
>> 
>> I do recall that the original Apple II ProDOS ran on an Apple II with 48KB of RAM, but believe subsequent versions only supported the 64KB Apple II machines. After the Apple IIe system with 64KB RAM became dominant I believe Apple changed ProDOS. I checked into this a little closer and found the following.
>> 
>> The ProDOS source contains the following comment which indicates ProDOS 1.0.2A02 (April 1984) no longer supported 48KB Apple II machines:
>> 
>> 	"Removed support for boot in 48K machines"
>> 
>> Source file SRC.PROLDR (ProDOS Loader) includes this memory test:
>> 
>> *********** branch widened- see rev note #62 ***********
>>                bne          nogood0                   ;hitch to hitch
>>                lda          romin
>>                jsr          whchrom                   ;get preliminary system configuration
>>                bcs          m48k                      ;branch if apple /// emulation
>>                lda          apple                     ;test for 48k configuration
>>                and          #$20                      ;by testing for 64k plus.
>>                bne          m64k                      ;branch if >48k
>> m48k            jmp          nogood                    ;must have at least 64k
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> APPLE II PRODOS SUPPORT FOR APPLE III SOS BOOTING
>> 
>> ProDOS also supported booting on an Apple III. The ProDOS boot disk contained in block 1 (the second block) the Apple III SOS boot loader. Block 0 contained the ProDOS boot loader. Page 93 of the ProDOS PDF source listing in section titled "sos system boot 1.1" describes ProDOS' dual botting nature.
>> 
>> Page 86 of the ProDOS source PDF listing has the following to say about this BOOTING:
>> 
>> * prodos universal boot loader.  this is the second stage boot
>> *   for all apple manufactured apple ii disk drives.
>> * it is located at block zero (0) of a prodos or sos formatted
>> *   disk(ette).  if booted in apple /// native mode, the regular
>> *   sos boot will be attempted.
>> 
>> Apple's Apple II ProDOS 8 Technical Reference Manual also discusses this in Appendix C: "ProDOS, the Apple III, and SOS":
>> 
>> As explained earlier in the manual, blocks 0 and 1 of a ProDOS-formatted disk contain the boot code -- the code that reads the operating system from the disk and runs it. Not explained was that this boot code runs on either an Apple II or an Apple III.
>> 
>> When you start up either an Apple II or an Apple III system with a ProDOS disk, the boot code is loaded at $800, and executed. The first thing it does is look to see whether it is running on an Apple II or Apple III. If it is running on an Apple II, it tries to load in the file PRODOS. If it is running on an Apple III, it tries to load in the file SOS.KERNEL. In either case, if the proper file is not found, it displays the appropriate error message.
>> 
>> This means that two versions of an application could be written, one for the Apple II, the other for the Apple III, and packaged together on the same disk. This single disk could be sold to both Apple II and Apple III owners.
>> ---
>> 
>> APPLE II PRODOS VERSION 1.7 SOURCE LISTING
>> 
>> For those with an interest in the source to ProDOS, I have a copy. As the successor to Apple III SOS, this listing is interesting since it shows what parts of SOS were included (file system) in ProDOS and which parts were excluded (memory management, device management, interrupt management).
>> 
>> I have the source for ProDOS 1.7 dated 1988. The source is both in multiple text files and also a single PDF file (329 pages long).
>> 
>> There is an interesting modification history listing of ProDOS starting on page 255 of the PDF listing titled 'MLI Revision History'. It is interesting to note the people involved in ProDOS' development:
>> 
>> 	J.R. "Dick" Huston	1.0
>> 	Dale M. Arends		1.0 - 1.2
>> 	Kerry Laidlaw		1.2 & the Education Network (EdNet) version
>> 	Mike Askins		1.2 - 1.4
>> 	Fern Bachman 		1.3 - 1.4
>> 	Ray Chiang		1.3 - 1.4
>> 	Grady Ward		1.5 - 1.7
>> 
>> Apple tracked ProDOS changes using revision note entries in the source listing which contained "rev note #X". Each revision was assigned a unique revision number which was listed in the version history with a description of the revision.
>> 
>> Here is the version history for ProDOS 1.0 (December 1983) to 1.7 (July 1988) ...
>> 
>>                SBTL         'MLI Revision History'
>> ******************************************************************
>> *                                                                *
>> *                       C A U T I O N S                          *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 1.  In the language card area, the $D000 areas overlay.  To    *
>> *     determine which bank is in requires that the main bank     *
>> *     has a CLD instruction ($D8) at location $D000 and the      *
>> *     alternate bank must not.                                   *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 2.  Location $E000 is used to determine the state of ROM vs.   *
>> *     language card.  Therefore, the values of $E000 in the MLI  *
>> *     and in the ROM MUST differ.                                *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 3.  In the file MEMMGR, the routines CALLDISP, RAMDRVR and     *
>> *     DOBUS each must access the other $D000 bank.  Therefore,   *
>> *     they MUST reside ABOVE $E000 in the language card area.    *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 4.  In order to tell the difference between a Disk II with a   *
>> *     DEVID of 0 and a Ram-based driver with a DEVID of 0, the   *
>> *     Disk II routines MUST start on a page boundary and the     *
>> *     ram-based driver caller (routine RAMDRVR in file MEMMGR)   *
>> *     MUST NOT start on a page boundary.                         *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 5.  In the ram disk driver (file RAM), the byte that assembles *
>> *     into location $FF58 MUST be a $60 (RTS) so that the usual  *
>> *     routine to determine an I/O card's slot (by JSR $FF58)     *
>> *     will still work even if the Language card is switched in.  *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 6.  RWTS calling routine at $FF90 is hard coded at that        *
>> *     address.  If /RAM driver moves or expands, the routine     *
>> *     must be moved and the dummy RWTS entry routine in XDOSMLI  *
>> *     must be changed.                                           *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 7.  If the ram disk driver is to be moved (to make room more   *
>> *     code), the value of the symbol Srce must be updated to     *
>> *     reflect the change.  It is found in the file 'RAM' and     *
>> *     should point to where the basic builder 'build.prodos'     *
>> *     loads the RAM driver into memory.                          *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 8.  Any changes in the size of PRODOS/8 must be accompanied    *
>> *     by changes in P/16 load information... the size is hard    *
>> *     coded there.                                               *
>> *                                                                *
>> * 9.  WARNING!  There are at least four absolute patches in p8   *
>> *     from pquit and p16.  (1) Pquit "CallDisp" about p8 FCE3    *
>> *     (2) P16 ChangePath "TOTENT" about p8 FE8A                  *
>> *     (3) P16 Entry/IsItOpen about p16 96fc about p8 EFA3        *
>> *     "TSTOPEN"  (4) Pquit's PLOADER direct patch into p8's      *
>> *     block READ/WRITE dispatch "godev"                          *
>> *     All of these must be looked at if there are any changes to *
>> *     p8.                                                        *
>> *                                                                *
>> ******************************************************************
>>                PAGE
>> ******************************************************************
>> *
>> * NOTE: After each revision is made, the splash screen and the value
>> *       of KVERSION in the Global Page must be updated to reflect the
>> *
>> * Ver 1.0 - Written by J.R. Huston
>> *         - Updated and released by Dale M. Arends, Dec. 1983
>> *
>> * Ver 1.0.1 - by Dale M. Arends, January 1, 1984
>> *         1.  Bug in status call when testing write protect fixed.
>> *               (File: READ.WRITE)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.0.1A01 - Dale M. Arends, January 20, 1984
>> *         2.  Force FLUSH of FCB after EOF cutback.
>> *               (File: CLOSE.EOF)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.0.2 - Dale M. Arends, February 7, 1984
>> *         3.  Replace LDAs with BITs in Interrupt entry area of
>> *             Global page so it won't destroy Accumulator.
>> *               (Files: GLOBALS)
>> *         4.  Fixed bug in Disk core routines so that motor is
>> *             certain to shut off after recal on an error.
>> *               (File: XRW1)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.0.2A01 - Dale M. Arends, February 13, 1984
>> *         5.  Rearranged MLI layout within Language Card.
>> *               (All Files Affected)
>> *         6.  Rearranged entry to XRW routines to make room for
>> *             a CLD as first byte.  This is necessary since XRW
>> *             routines are now at $D000 and the CLD flags bank as
>> *             Main $D000 space.  Also added check for valid call
>> *             number (0-3).  (Both XRW files affected.)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.0.2A02 - Dale M. Arends, April 4, 1984
>> *         7.  Rewrote machine ID routine to allow for Phylums of
>> *             machines.    Ranges:  0n - //c
>> *                                   4n - ???
>> *               (File: PROLDR)      8n - ???
>> *                                   En - //e
>> *
>> *         8.  Removed support for boot in 48K machines.
>> *               (File: PROLDR)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.1XA01 - Dale M. Arends, May 3, 1984
>> *         9.  Modified Interrupt routine to allow for new ROMs in //c
>> *             and //e machines.
>> *               (Files: PROLDR, EQUATES, GLOBALS, XDOSMLI)
>> *        10.  Removed check for OS version number in file OPEN routine.
>> *               (File: POSN.OPEN)
>> *        11.  Incremented KVERSION number in Global page.
>> *               (Files: GLOBALS)
>> *        12.  Modified DEVSRCH routine to correctly reflect the
>> *             presence of any 80-col card following established
>> *             signature byte protocol.
>> *               (File: DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.1XA02 - Dale M. Arends, May 11, 1984
>> *        13.  Added routine to allow for firmware in slot 3 to be
>> *             enabled. In //e, internal $C300 firmware is enabled
>> *             if no ROM in slot 3.  This is necessary for interrupts
>> *             and BRKs to work.  NOTE: any ROMs in slot 3 MUST support
>> *             the 80-column interrupt and BRK entry points or an
>> *             interupt or BRK will cause a system hang.
>> *               (File: PROLDR)
>> *        14.  Added routine to turn off all disk motor phases prior
>> *             to SEEKing a track on a Disk II call.
>> *               (File: XRW2)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.1XA02 renamed Ver 1.1 - Dale M. Arends, June 14, 1984
>> *
>> * Ver 1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 7-19-84)
>> *        15.  Added routine for accessing user installed drivers
>> *             located in AUX Language Card.
>> *               (Files: PROLDR, MEMMGR)
>> * Ver 1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 08-17-84)
>> *        16.  Added work-around for bug when accessing /RAM after it
>> *             has been removed from DEVLST.
>> *               (File: NEWFNDVOL)
>> *        17.  Reduced the RAM DISK by 1 block to protect the interrupt
>> *             vector area of the Aux Language Card.  Interrupt vectors
>> *             installed in the Aux Language Card at boot time.
>> *               (File: RAM, PROLDR)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.1.1 - by Dale M. Arends (New date in splash screen 9-18-84)
>> *        18.  Fixed routine in RSETPHSE to map into Drive 1.
>> *               (File: XRW2)
>> *        19.  Rewrote Machine ID routine to give I/O precedence to
>> *             an identifiable 80-column card in Slot 3.
>> *               (File: PROLDR)  (See #12 above.)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2XA01 - by Dale M. Arends - 10/3/84
>> *        20.  Added MLI Call for AppleBus and driver calling code.
>> *              (Files: EQUATES, PROLDR, XDOSMLI, MEMMGR, DATATBLS)
>> *        21.  Fixed bug in error return of Ram Disk Driver.
>> *              (File: RAM)
>> *        22.  Assigned a SYSTEM ERROR when error occurs in deallocating
>> *             blocks from a TREE file.
>> *              (File: DETREE)
>> *        23.  Fixed bug in zeroing of a VCB when trying reallocating
>> *             a previously used VCB.
>> *              (File: NEWFNDVOL)
>> *        24.  Modified Loader to automatically install up to 4 drives if
>> *             the Smart Driver follows the defined $CnFE bit protocol.
>> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
>> *        25.  Modified MLI entry routines to disable interrupts until
>> *             after MLIACTV flag is set and CMDADR is set up.
>> *             (Note: change is not noted in source code.)
>> *              (Files: GLOBALS, XDOSMLI)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2XA02 - Lost in the Wilds of the San Jose Triangle.
>> *        (Go to the Bermuda Triangle and turn left.)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2XA03 - by Dale M. Arends - 1/24/85
>> *        26.  Modified Dispatcher to treat the DELETE key as a
>> *              Back Space (Left Arrow).
>> *              (File: SEL)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2XA04 - by Dale M. Arends - 1/28/85
>> *        27.  Modified splash screen to reflect version control loss.
>> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2XA05 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 2/11/85
>> *        28.  Modified the ONLINE call to zero out a VCB corresponding
>> *             to a disconnected device.  Previously if a user followed
>> *             our method on disconnecting a device by removing the
>> *             volume's device number in the device list, and removing
>> *             the device handler's address from the device vector table,
>> *             ProDOS never removed the corresponding VCB entry.  Now
>> *             in addition to the above, the user can then issue a
>> *             specific ONLINE call to the user disconnected device.  A
>> *             no device connected error ($28) will be returned in the
>> *             accumulator, but the VCB will be taken off line.
>> *              (File: BFMGR)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2XA06 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 3/20/85
>> *        29.  Fixed bug in PROLDR file that did not swap back correct
>> *             bank.
>> *              (File:PROLDR)
>> *        30.  Added the "real" AppleTalk drivers that will reside in
>> *             bank 2, $D400-$DFFF, in the Main Language Card.
>> *              (File:BUS)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2xa08 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 5/15/85
>> *        31.  Updated Copyright Notices in source & in splash screen.
>> *              (Files:MLI,GLOBALS)
>> *        32.  Set KVERSION byte in global page to $82.  This version
>> *             ID byte is interpreted as follows:
>> *                The low 7 bits contain the ProDOS version number.
>> *                The high bit is set if this version of ProDOS
>> *                supports AppleTalk.
>> *              (Files:GLOBALS)
>> *        33.  Removed 4 drive install code (see #24 above) to prevent
>> *             problems with applications.  Some applications would
>> *             interpret unit numbers as mapping to physical slots.  Thus
>> *             even though unit numbers may only have a logical mapping,
>> *             these applications would assume a disk card is in the
>> *             physical slot.  Therefore if an I/O card is in that slot,
>> *             the application wouldn't look for it.
>> *              (File:DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> *        34.  Commented out one to many pla's from the dispatcher
>> *             calling routine.
>> *              (File:MEMMGR)
>> *
>> *        35.  Added an unclaimed (spurious) interrupt handler. It allows
>> *             255 unclaimed interrupts before going to system death.
>> *              (File:XDOSMLI)
>> *
>> *        36.  Removed low res mode evocation when displaying system
>> *             death messages.  (It was buggy to begin with and it saves
>> *             me 6 bytes:lda c083,lda c086).
>> *             Also removed ability to display system death message
>> *             without '-ERR xx' as part of the message.  This was done
>> *             to save space.  The system itself never used this ability
>> *             and hopefully no one else did either....
>> *              (Files:XDOSMLI,DATATBLS)
>> *
>> *        37.  Since the JSPARE vector in the global page was the only
>> *             vector to the SYS.RTS routine which will halt the system
>> *             with an 'INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND RESTART' message), and
>> *             JSPARE is overwritten by the loader with the dispatcher
>> *             calling vector, the 6 bytes starting at the SYS.RTS label
>> *             are now considered free space.
>> *              (File:GLOBALS)
>> *
>> *        38.  Deleted needless code that relocated Atalk drivers twice.
>> *             Also modified parameters that relocate interrupt file
>> *             MLI.3.
>> *              (File:PROLDR)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2xa09 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 5/30/85
>> *        39.  Fixed bug in dispatcher that would trash screen holes
>> *             when code is called while in 80 column mode.  (Previously
>> *             HOME was called without the window size being updated to
>> *             a 40 column size.  Therefore the wrong BASCALC's were
>> *             done and zap!).  Now, I call SETTXT before calling home
>> *             which will set text mode and a 40 column window.
>> *             I also commented out a lda #0 to reclaim needed space.
>> *              (File:SEL)
>> *
>> *        40.  Made code that zeroed user's index block in his I/O
>> *             buffer into a subroutine.  Saved 8 bytes.
>> *              (Files:READ.WRITE,POSN.OPEN)
>> *
>> *        41.  Set a flag in the DELETE code to signal the DETREE routine
>> *             NOT to zero index blocks upon deallocation.  This was done
>> *             so developers could write file recovery routines.
>> *              (Files:DESTROY,DETREE,WRKSPACE)
>> *
>> * Ver 1.2xa10 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 6/4/85
>> *        42.  Replaced two lda's and bit's with one sta to hit the bank
>> *             switches (c083,c08b).  Note: I am counting on the fact
>> *             that once into ProDOS, the LC is already in a r/w state.
>> *             Thereafter, you only have to hit the bank switch once to
>> *             switch banks and maintain a r/w state in the new bank.
>> *             Also note that this was done to preserve zero flag status
>> *             upon return from the network drivers.  The previous BIT's
>> *             would destroy that status.
>> *              (File:MEMMGR)
>> *
>> *        43.  Forced the /RAM driver to return zeros on block read
>> *             requests to block 7, and do nothing on block writes to
>> *             block 7.  Previously, a block write to block 7 (an
>> *             operation that is invalid anyway), would bomb out into
>> *             the monitor.  Read and writes to blocks 0,1,4,5,6, and
>> *             now 7 are all treated in this manner.
>> *              (File:RAM)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2xa11 - by Kerry Laidlaw 6/12/85
>> *        44.  Removed disabling of interrupts from loader.  Therefore
>> *             the whether the processor allows interrupts or not is
>> *             left up to the monitor.
>> *              (File:DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2xa12 - by Kerry Laidlaw 6/21/85
>> *        45.  Initialized main stack to $ff and set up $101 in Aux
>> *             memory (if it is there) to $ff so programs using the
>> *             aux stack will be started off correctly.
>> *              (File:PROLDR)
>> *
>> *        46.  Fixed 2 bugs in XDOSMLI file:
>> *             1) After processor is pulled to re-enable interrupts,
>> *                a CLD is now done to keep out of decimal mode.
>> *             2) Turning "off" MLIACTIVE flag is now done correctly
>> *                with an ASL after and initial ROR instead of the
>> *                original LSR.
>> *
>> * New version id for fear of version confusion 12/13/85...
>> * Version 1.2 exp 01 - by Kerry Laidlaw 12/13/85
>> *        47.  The OPEN call will now return error $4B (unsupported or
>> *             incorrect storage type) instead of $4A (incompatible file
>> *             format for this version) when determining if it is legal
>> *             to open a file of a particular storage type.
>> *               (File: POSN.OPEN)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2 exp 02 - by Kerry Laidlaw 2/3/86
>> *        48.  Splash screen now shows "PRODOS 8" instead of "PRODOS".
>> *             Fixed a bug in the read call that would return the
>> *             incorrect number of bytes transferred when newline was
>> *             enabled.  If the requested number of bytes was greater
>> *             than $00FF, AND the number of bytes in the file AFTER the
>> *             newline character was READ was a multiple of $100, then
>> *             the number of bytes reported transferred by ProDOS was
>> *             equal to the correct number of transferred bytes + $100.
>> *               (Files: DEVSRCH, READ.WRITE)
>> *
>> *        49.  Removed fix from rev #41 that prevented index blocks
>> *             from being zeroed after files were deleted.
>> *              (Files: DESTROY, DETREE, WRKSPACE)
>> *
>> *        50.  Added new clock driver to read the Cortland builtin clock.
>> *             The loader will now check for a Cortland to decide which
>> *             clock driver (slot or built-in) to install.
>> *             Stopped messing with slot 3 rom space if running on a
>> *             Cortland.  The Control Program lets the user determine
>> *             internal vs. external slot space.
>> *             Also commented out bus references in equates file, since
>> *             it has now been decided that there be no Appletalk drivers
>> *             in this version of ProDOS8.
>> *              (Files: EQUATES, PROLDR, CCLOCK)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2 exp 03 - by Kerry Laidlaw 2/20/86
>> *        51.  Updated slot clock driver's year lookup table.
>> *             The year can now be calculated thru 1991.
>> *              (File: TCLOCK)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2 exp 04 - by Kerry Laidlaw 3/07/86
>> *        52.  Updated Cortland clock driver to adjust to new
>> *             miscellaneous toolset call number.
>> *
>> * Version 1.2 exp 05 - by Kerry Laidlaw 3/13/86
>> *        53.  Updated DEVSRCH to special case a Smartport card
>> *             in slot 5 to allow 4 Smartport units. Driver entry
>> *             addresses for these Smartport units would be placed in
>> *             the ProDOS global page's slot 5 and slot 2 driver vectors.
>> *             ProDOS unit numbers $50 & $D0 (slot 5, drives 1 and 2)
>> *             will correspond to Smartport units 1 and 2.  ProDOS unit
>> *             numbers $20 and $A0 (Slot 2 drives 1 and 2), will
>> *             correspond to Smartport units 3 and 4.
>> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2 exp 06 - by Kerry Laidlaw 04/03/86
>> *        54.  Updated Smartport unit special casing (see rev note #53)
>> *             to ensure the extra two unit numbers to have a $B in
>> *             the low nibble so the FILER won't have any problems
>> *             with formatting.  Also set version id byte (KVERSION) in
>> *             global page to $02 representing version 1.2.
>> *              (Files: DEVSRCH, GLOBALS)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2 D1 - by Kerry Laidlaw 06/22/86
>> *        55.  Crunched the dispatcher code to make room so the correct
>> *             soft switches and monitor routines could be called to
>> *             go to 40 columns and display text.
>> *              (File: SEL)
>> *
>> *        56.  Added feature to loader that will load and JSR to the
>> *             file "ATINIT" in the booting volume's root directory.
>> *             If the file is not found, no error is reported, and
>> *             the ".SYSTEM" file is executed as normal.  But if an
>> *             I/O error other than file not found is encountered
>> *             or if the file type is not the ATINIT type of $f8
>> *             while loading "ATINIT", a fatal error is displayed.
>> *              (File: PROLDR)
>> *
>> *        57.  Added an alternate loader entry point.
>> *             The new entry is at $2003 and is intended to be called
>> *             be called only by the network boot code when booting
>> *             over the net, and by ProDOS 16 v1.0 on the Apple //-16.
>> *             The loader through this entry point will
>> *             NOT load the ATINIT file and will NOT load the
>> *             .SYSTEM file.  It will set up ProDOS and RTS back
>> *             to the caller to this entry point.
>> *             Because of this feature, the initialization of the
>> *             stack done in rev Note #45, was taken out....
>> *              (File: PROLDR)
>> *
>> *        58.  Added code to set MACHID byte to indicate a clock
>> *             was present when ProDOS is run on an Apple //-16.
>> *              (File: PROLDR)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2A1 - by Kerry Laidlaw 06/30/86
>> *        59.  ATINIT file official file type now checked for is
>> *             $E2.
>> *              (File: PROLDR)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2A2 - by Mike Askins   08/25/86
>> *        60.  The device searching process has changed.  SmartPort
>> *             devices are only installed if they exist and Disk //s
>> *             are placed in the device list so that they have the
>> *             lowest priority in device scans.  This should regularize
>> *             device numbering and naming in ProDOS/16.  Note that this
>> *             change caused the loader to grow by 256 bytes, and
>> *             everything beyond devsrch is moved by one page.
>> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2B1 - by Mike Askins   08/25/86
>> *        61.  The loader now passes a flag to Cortland at $FEFF to
>> *             indicate that we're running on a Cortland.  At system
>> *             death, if we're on a Cortland, a zero is stuffed into
>> *             $C029 disabling super hires so that the user can see the
>> *             system death message.
>> *              (Files: PROLDR, XDOSMLI, WRKSPACE)
>> *
>> *        62.  A parameter os.boot is now passed to Cortland AppleTalk.
>> *             If it is a stand alone ProDOS/8 (not P8/16 config) a
>> *             zero is stored in $E100BD.  Two branches had to be
>> *             extended to accomodate the code which does this (these
>> *             are marked).
>> *              (File: PROLDR)
>> *
>> *        63.  Two DS directives were altered (" ,0 " added) so that
>> *             they generated bytes with a fixed value.  Successive
>> *             builds should now compare byte for byte EXCEPT for the
>> *             date string (around 1550 decimal into PRODOS file).
>> *              (File: SEL)
>> *
>> *        64.  The logic of the newly added SmartPort handler in the
>> *             loader has been changed to fix a bug in V1.2A2 which
>> *             prevents installation of SmartPort devices in any slot
>> *             OTHER than 5.  The check for slot five was moved down
>> *             past the installation of drives 1 and/or 2.
>> *              (File: DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2B2 - by Mike Askins   09/06/86
>> *        65.  A bug is fixed in the loader which caused disk devices
>> *            in slot 2 to conflict ungracefully with more than two
>> *            devices in slot 5.  Now, if any disk device is detected
>> *            in slot 2, NO MORE THAN 2 units are installed in slot 5.
>> *             (File: DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> *        66.  The Cortland Clock Driver now sets main memory before
>> *            doing the call to the miscellaneous tools to read the
>> *            clock hardware.  The main/aux state is then restored.
>> *
>> * Version 1.2B3 - by Kerry Laidlaw 09/07/86
>> *        67. Updated cclock routine to correct the anding of the
>> *            state register.
>> *             (File:CCLOCK)
>> *
>> * Version 1.2   - by Mike Askins   09/08/86
>> *        No changes
>> *
>> * Version 1.2   - by Mike Askins   09/23/86
>> *        68. Inserted a patch into RELOC to fix a bug in the 1.0 GS
>> *            ROM which caused the internal CX ROM space to be left
>> *            mapped in after a boot failure on SmartPort.  See the
>> *            documentation in RELOC to find out why the patch was
>> *            placed here (it has nothing to do with the RELOCation
>> *            process!).
>> *
>> * Version 1.2   - by Kerry Laidlaw 09/23/86
>> *        69. Fixed a bug in the dispatcher that trashes screen when
>> *            executed with the prefix set to nil.
>> *            Previously when an error occured when the pathname
>> *            was checked, the message at the top of the screen
>> *            was redisplayed. Now we are jumping so the message
>> *            is not redisplayed.  It saves us 2 bytes....
>> *             (File:SEL)
>> *
>> * Version 1.3   - by Mike Askins, Fern Bachman - 10/17/86
>> *        70. The code that resets the phase lines for Disk //s has been
>> *            changed so that the phase clearing is done with a load, not
>> *            a store.  Stores to even numbered locations on the disk
>> *            hardware cause data bus contention which is just not cool.
>> *            The routine has been changed to access all 8 even locations
>> *            which not only clears the phases but forces read mode (as
>> *            well as 1st drive and motor off) on entry to the disk code.
>> *            DOS used to do this and ProDOS did not.  If for some reason
>> *            (copy protection, runaway programs) l7 was left high on
>> *            entry to the disk routines, and the disk routines checked
>> *            write protect with l6 high:  BINGO -- we're in write mode.
>> *            Forcing read mode initially leaves less to chance.
>> *            to assemble ProDOS8 with cross reference tables.
>> *        71. The file MLI was changed to allow ASM816 version 1.4.2 to
>> *            allow for cross reference listings to be generated.
>> *            Assembling the file MLI generates ProDOS8 without listings.
>> *            Assembling the file L.MLI generates PorDOS8 with a listing.
>> *            NOTE: A blank RAM disk card called /RAM1 must be installed
>> *                  in the system to cross references to be generated.
>> *        72. The 'date' directive was removed in the file DEVSRCH
>> *            and an ASC 'xx-xxx-xx' directive replaced it.
>> *
>> * Version 1.3   - by Ray Chiang   11/07/86
>> *        73. In reference to rev notes 41 and 49, index blocks now
>> *            have their contents flipped when the file is deleted
>> *            and their contents are fully zeroed when EOF cutback
>> *            occurs.  This technique allows scavenging programs to
>> *            possibly recover files that were accidently deleted.
>> *            Also the possibility of unclaimed blocks 'looking'
>> *            like valid index blocks is reduced.  Previous to this
>> *            revision, whole index blocks from tree files were
>> *            being released back into the disk.
>> *            (files: DESTROY,DETREE,WRKSPACE)
>> *
>> * Version 1.3   - by Fern Bachman 11/17/86
>> *        74. The SmartPort interface card (our Liron interface card)
>> *            does not set up its device chain unless a ProDOS call
>> *            is made to it.  Therefore in DEVSRCH where Mike makes
>> *            SmartPort calls the card is not setup yet so it returns
>> *            00 devices in its chain.  This results in the card/drives
>> *            never being seen by ProDOS.  To fix that we will now make
>> *            a ProDOS status call before SmartPort status calls.  This
>> *            should guarantee valid device counts.
>> *            (file: DEVSRCH)
>> *
>> * Version 1.4   - by Ray Chiang/Fern Bachman 02/03/87
>> *        75. Fix illegal 65C02 instruction in 6502 code.  ie change
>> *            the BRA to a BEQ instruction.
>> *
>> * Version 1.4   - by Mike Askins/Fern Bachman 02/12/87
>> *        76. Changed RSETPHSE routine to only clear the phase lines.
>> *            And we clear Q7 so no writes can accidently occur.
>> *
>> * Version 1.4  - by Ray Chiang/Mike Askins 03/23/87
>> *        77. Simple programming error in fix 76 .
>> *
>> * Version 1.4 - Ray Chiang 04/17/87
>> *        78. No changes, released to SCM
>> *
>> * Version 1.5d1 - Grady Ward 2 Sep 87
>> *         79.  Fixed overrun problem in READ.WRITE
>> *              Also, changed p16 patch addresses
>> *
>> *         80.  Made call to DEVMGR surrounded by NOP's so that
>> *              it can be patched by p16 and pquit more easily
>> *              (for both cache and AppleTalk booting)
>> *
>> *
>> * Version 1.5d7 - Grady Ward 20 Nov 87 Summary of Changes
>> *         81.  Change to READ.WRITE in tstwprot to disable interrupts
>> *              if going to use DMGR (Caching)
>> *
>> *         82.  P8 code has been extensively moved about to make room
>> *              for patches to DMGR dispatch (approximately 14 bytes
>> *              were needed for AppleTalk booting patches caching patches)
>> *
>> * Version 1.5d8 4-Dec-87
>> *
>> *          83.  Change some asc strings, like "system" uppercase.
>> *
>> * Version 1.5d11 20-Jan-88
>> *
>> *           84.  Took out $42 generic AppleTalk Call
>> *
>> * Version 1.5b2 16-Feb-88
>> *
>> *            85.  Restored asl mliactv to lsr in "exitmli"
>> *
>> * Version 1.5b3 1-Mar-88
>> *
>> *            86. Clear ESC in keyboard if booting on Apple //c
>> *                ("slow" down for Zip Chip)
>> * Version 1.6 14-Jun-88
>> *
>> *            87. Set up parallel pfixptr to fix
>> *                AppleTalk PFI misinterpretation
>> *                of two's comp prefix pointer
>> *
>> * Version 1.7 22-July-88
>> *
>> *            88.  When setting eof backwards, make sure
>> *                 volumes bitmaps are counted before inc
>> *                 free blocks
>> *
>> *            89.  When installing ramdisk, make sure slot3rom
>> *                 is preserved rather than overwritten
>> *
>> *            90.  In system death, check "cortflag" rather than
>> *                 "cortland" to ascertain what system we're on
>> *
>> *             91.  Waited to restore slot3 firmware until just before
>> *                  gquit is called at jspare
>> *
>> *             92.  Now permit invisible bit to be set with set file info
>> *                  (bit 2 of d.attr byte)
>> *
>> ************************************************************************
>> *
>> *
>> * EdNet v1.0x01 - by Kerry Laidlaw - 6/5/85
>> *+++++++     The following changes are made to support transparent
>> *            file access for the AppleTalk network.  This version
>> *            will be the user (student) stations ProDOS.  It has been
>> *            decided that this version of ProDOS will only support
>> *            128k systems.
>> *
>> *      EN1.  The RWTS routines are now running in LC, b2 above
>> *            the dispatcher code ($D400-$DAE9).  To do this the
>> *            loader was changed to load the RWTS routines into bank 2
>> *            starting at $d400, and a dummy RWTS entry at $D000 b1,
>> *            was entered which only does a CLD followed by a JMP $FF90.
>> *            The routine at $FF90 is at the end of the RAM code file
>> *            where a few extra bytes were dangling.
>> * NOTE: FOR ANY FUTURE MAINTAINER of this code.  As of 5/88, all
>> * ProDOS 8, 16, and BASIC.SYSTEM bugs are archived as ProDOS bug
>> * in the B.R.C. archive, priority 5.  Please look there before
>> * making any changes to p8 or p16.  Grady Ward
>> *
>> *      EN2.  Modified the block file manager to go to the AppleTalk
>> *            command when the pathname corresponds to /ATALK.
>> *            The new DOATALK file will house all the AppleTalk interface
>> *            command handling.
>> *            The MLI.BUILD BASIC program was updated to handle 7 more
>> *            pages of code in the MLI.2 file.
>> *             (Files:BFMGR,DATATBLS,DOATALK,WRKSPACE)
>> *
>> *      EN3.  Changed loader to relocate Atalk drivers to Aux LC.
>> *            Also changed ATP caller to go thru the "bridge" mechanism.
>> *            This bridge routine is so named because its purpose is to
>> *            get an entry address to ATP, FAP etc., as contained in
>> *            the address table labled ATALKTBL, and jsr to the
>> *            routine in the Aux LC.  This address table is
>> *            located at the beginning of the ATP driver file COMMANDS.
>> *            At load time, this table is copied into space reserved
>> *            for it in the file XDOSMLI.
>> *            Also, the ATP interrupt handler has been pre-installed
>> *            into ProDOS in the file XDOSMLI.
>> *            The RPM STUB that will be called when characters are
>> *            written to the AppleTalk card was placed in the file
>> *            MEMMGR.  The Loader now installs the hooks to the RPM
>> *            STUB in the AppleTalk card's screen holes.
>> *             (Files:PROLDR,MEMMGR,XDOSMLI,COMMANDS)
>> *
>> ******************************************************
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Sun May  2 18:20:06 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 17:20:06 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk][ as 2nd floppy  Progress report
Message-ID: <C13679EC-A75B-481E-8A72-106B09A229E1@die-kempers.de>

Hi,
this weekend I had reserved some time to try out the Disk ][ on the Apple ///

In short: It seems much easier than I thought.Just make a 1:1 connection,but I am not 100% there yet.

Long version:

I used a breadboard and wired the Disk ///  and Disk][ connectors to it so that I have access to all signals.

First I connected all lines which did match . This was pretty straight forward as the first 20 pins just match 1:1

I was just reluctant to connect Pin 14 which is Enable_A (///) to Enable_bar(][) I thought I must connect Pin 14 (][) to Pin 21(///)
to adress the second drive. Of course the signal must be inverted, so I used a 74ls14 (schmitt inverter)

That did not work at first and I pulled out my fluke scope to monitor Enable_a(22) Enable_b(21),A][_bar(23 and Slot(26) on the Apple /// side.

I found an interesting fact.
If you set in the system settings the drives to 2. The whole decoding is pretty static .
So you can ignore pins 26 and 23.
Furthermore you can also ignore pin 21 and 22. Why is that?
Because the Disk][ needs an Enable_bar and Pin 14 on the /// is a Enable_a which is high when drive A is selected and low when drive b is addressed.
In other words if you are not accessing drive A you must mean drive B and the signals match the different logics of Disk /// and Disk ][ on the enable line.

So if you need just a second drive, one can match the pinout 1:1 including pin 14 and it should work.

I wonder if Apple ever had intended to make this public. It could have harmed the Disk/// business and maybe the price difference between disk/// and disk][ wasn't that big to see it as an advantage.

I tried it and it worked quite well.

I can address drive d1 and d2 and read from it.
I can also format on both drives.

But there is currently one problem.
I can not copy files to d2 and I can not write to d2.

My theory right now is that my breadboard wiring has quite some parasitic capacitance and inductance.
The Disk][ and I guess the Disk///  write timing has to be very precise , so I speculate I corrupt the signal with my quick and dirty wiring.

I hope that I can build a better adapter during the coming week to see if this is solving the problem.

If someone has a better understanding why writing on .d2 is not working, please let me know.

In the Apple/// disk analog schematic there is a confusing glitch. Pin 18 on J3 is inverted but on J2 it is not.
I guess a glitch in the schematic but what is correct? I assume WR_DATA_Bar as it is on the DISK][.
But if it is meant to be a WR_DATA then that would explain why writing is not working for me and I have to invert the signal.
If someone nows the answer ,please let me know.(I will check out with the scope next time but you can save me the time )

I still thing that even a 1+3 system with 3 disk][ should be possible but first I want to have the two disk solution working reliably.

By the way a side note:
My 3rd Party disk][ drive is able to format but the formatted disk is not readable.
My original apple disk][ will not format.
I do not know why this difference is there. Maybe the logic board of the noname is a little diffrent and not 100% compatible.

Of course both drives work just fine in a Apple ][.







From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Sun May  2 22:10:46 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 21:10:46 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk][ as 2nd floppy  Progress report
In-Reply-To: <C13679EC-A75B-481E-8A72-106B09A229E1@die-kempers.de>
References: <C13679EC-A75B-481E-8A72-106B09A229E1@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <BABD71A4-AE04-4217-880B-27AB6E6ACD0E@die-kempers.de>

Just in case you like to see it.
It is not much to see but it may supports my writing with visuals

http://www.flickr.com/photos/49815492 at N02/



From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Sun May  2 22:19:33 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 21:19:33 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Replacing the NMOST CPU+VIAS with CMOS parts
Message-ID: <71F0BAD6-5158-4475-88C7-31C6D0B1460F@die-kempers.de>

Hi,
I mentioned in a previous post that I think by replacing the original 1980 NMOST IC's with modern CMOS parts would reduce the temp load inside the case.

Well I think still it would help the thermo budged but I tried it and it failed.

I replaced the two VIAS with CMOS VIAS and the 6502 with a 65c02.
The /// did not like it ;-(

I tired just the VIAS and just the 6502 but both times it was no good.

I do not want to scratch my head over this tonight but maybe the CMOS fan-out is lower than that of the NMOST devices,
or it is just because the NMOST is a open drain and the CMOS a real output buffer.....

I need to compare datasheets, the 65c02 was working fine in my Apple ][.



From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon May  3 14:31:20 2010
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 11:31:20 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Replacing the NMOST CPU+VIAS with CMOS parts
In-Reply-To: <71F0BAD6-5158-4475-88C7-31C6D0B1460F@die-kempers.de>
References: <71F0BAD6-5158-4475-88C7-31C6D0B1460F@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <4BDF1678.1060407@brouhaha.com>

On 05/02/2010 07:19 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> I replaced the two VIAS with CMOS VIAS and the 6502 with a 65c02.
> The /// did not like it ;-(
>
> I tired just the VIAS and just the 6502 but both times it was no good.
>
> I do not want to scratch my head over this tonight but maybe the CMOS fan-out is lower than that of the NMOST devices,
> or it is just because the NMOST is a open drain and the CMOS a real output buffer.....
>    
More likely a problem with the CMOS 6502 timing. Some CMOS 6502s don't 
work in some Apple ][ and Apple ][+ systems. The problem is that the ][ 
and ][+ do their timing based on the ?0 clock which is the input to the 
6502, and not the ?2 signal which is the output of the 6502's clock 
generator. ?2 is a delayed version of ?0, and the 6502 timing is 
specified relative to ?2. The Apple ][/][+ design using ?0 made things 
critically dependent on the timing of the NMOS part, such that the 
improved performance of the CMOS part sometimes caused issues. The Apple 
/// schematics show that ?0 is used in many places, suggesting that it 
may have the same problem.

Eric


From wkemper at ti.com  Mon May  3 15:28:37 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 14:28:37 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Replacing the NMOST CPU+VIAS with CMOS parts
In-Reply-To: <4BDF1678.1060407@brouhaha.com>
References: <71F0BAD6-5158-4475-88C7-31C6D0B1460F@die-kempers.de>
	<4BDF1678.1060407@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <BC58B872-4CB8-485C-B57B-0560176C0976@ti.com>

Eric,
this is a good explanation for the fail on the 6502, thanks.

Any Idea why the 6522 VIAs did also fail? I had the 6502 in at that time.


Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 3, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> On 05/02/2010 07:19 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
>> I replaced the two VIAS with CMOS VIAS and the 6502 with a 65c02.
>> The /// did not like it ;-(
>> 
>> I tired just the VIAS and just the 6502 but both times it was no good.
>> 
>> I do not want to scratch my head over this tonight but maybe the CMOS fan-out is lower than that of the NMOST devices,
>> or it is just because the NMOST is a open drain and the CMOS a real output buffer.....
>> 
> More likely a problem with the CMOS 6502 timing. Some CMOS 6502s don't 
> work in some Apple ][ and Apple ][+ systems. The problem is that the ][ 
> and ][+ do their timing based on the ?0 clock which is the input to the 
> 6502, and not the ?2 signal which is the output of the 6502's clock 
> generator. ?2 is a delayed version of ?0, and the 6502 timing is 
> specified relative to ?2. The Apple ][/][+ design using ?0 made things 
> critically dependent on the timing of the NMOS part, such that the 
> improved performance of the CMOS part sometimes caused issues. The Apple 
> /// schematics show that ?0 is used in many places, suggesting that it 
> may have the same problem.
> 
> Eric
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon May  3 16:18:38 2010
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 13:18:38 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Replacing the NMOST CPU+VIAS with CMOS parts
In-Reply-To: <BC58B872-4CB8-485C-B57B-0560176C0976@ti.com>
References: <71F0BAD6-5158-4475-88C7-31C6D0B1460F@die-kempers.de>
	<4BDF1678.1060407@brouhaha.com>
	<BC58B872-4CB8-485C-B57B-0560176C0976@ti.com>
Message-ID: <4BDF2F9E.5030106@brouhaha.com>

On 05/03/2010 12:28 PM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> this is a good explanation for the fail on the 6502, thanks.
>
> Any Idea why the 6522 VIAs did also fail? I had the 6502 in at that time.
>    

Probably a similar timing issue, though I haven't looked at that part of 
the /// schematic or tried to work out the 6522 timing.

Best regards,
Eric


From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Mon May  3 22:54:30 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:54:30 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Replacing the NMOST CPU+VIAS with CMOS parts
In-Reply-To: <71F0BAD6-5158-4475-88C7-31C6D0B1460F@die-kempers.de>
References: <71F0BAD6-5158-4475-88C7-31C6D0B1460F@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF69011905@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> I replaced the two VIAS with CMOS VIAS and the 6502 with a 65c02.
> The /// did not like it ;-(
> I tired just the VIAS and just the 6502 but both times it was no good.

I am surprised; I remember distinctly putting a 65c02 in my ///; not the
one I am using now, the one I gave away a while ago when I left Europe.

Michel.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue May  4 02:00:31 2010
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 23:00:31 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Replacing the NMOST CPU+VIAS with CMOS parts
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF69011905@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <71F0BAD6-5158-4475-88C7-31C6D0B1460F@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF69011905@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <4BDFB7FF.8030406@brouhaha.com>

On 05/03/2010 07:54 PM, Michel Py wrote:
> I am surprised; I remember distinctly putting a 65c02 in my ///; not the
> one I am using now, the one I gave away a while ago when I left Europe.
>
>    
On the Apple ][, 65C02 parts from some vendors would work and from other 
vendors not, presumably due to process variations leading to variations 
in the required signal setup and hold times.  Also some Apple ][s were 
more picky than others.  It wouldn't surprise me for the /// to be the 
same way, as the core of the system timing is very similar.

Eric



From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Wed May  5 18:48:24 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 17:48:24 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
Message-ID: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>

Just witnessed this auction:
Apple III Plus Computer - Working & Very Hard to Find!!

Is this a fair price for a /// +with Titan card?


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From louiss at gate.net  Wed May  5 19:31:02 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 19:31:02 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
In-Reply-To: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
References: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net>

Usually, you can't give a III away.  A III+ is probably more desirable, 
but this is very high.

But, it is in very good condition (although the color in the pictures 
was obviously made gray to emphasize that there was no yellowing), and 
three people were willing to pay over $600.

The /// plus //e card is rare, but as a practical matter if you want to 
use a //e, the best thing is to get a //e.  And it doesn't have the 512k 
upgrade.

It is nice to know my ///+ is that valuable.  I am pretty sure I got it 
for free.

Louis



On 5/5/2010 6:48 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> Just witnessed this auction:
> Apple III Plus Computer - Working & Very Hard to Find!! 
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260593968874&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123> 
>
>
> Is this a fair price for a /// +with Titan card?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>    
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From louiss at gate.net  Wed May  5 20:08:16 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:08:16 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <4BE20870.1050206@gate.net>

OK, on the subject of floppy drives.  Someone mentioned that they 
thought the DB connector on the ///+ had something to do with the 
possible use of a unidisk or duodisk, since the Disk /// never had a plug.

The plugs are not the same, the one on the ///+ has more pins.

Can you plug in a unidisk or duodisk to a ///+ floppy port, using some 
sort of adapter?  Or are they completely different animals?

Louis

From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed May  5 20:13:55 2010
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 17:13:55 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
In-Reply-To: <4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net>
References: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net>
Message-ID: <4BE209C3.7050604@brouhaha.com>

On 05/05/2010 04:31 PM, Louis Schulman wrote:
> Usually, you can't give a III away.  A III+ is probably more 
> desirable, but this is very high.
I'd love to get a ///+, but I certainly wouldn't pay that much for it.  
I might have been willing to pay that much for a ///+ with a /// plus 
//e card, had I known about it in time.

I'd love to reverse-engineer a schematic for a /// plus //e card, 
redesign it to use a CPLD and higher density memory chips, and get some 
made, but I'd have to either acquire or borrow the card for the 
reverse-engineering.

Eric

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From dave.ottalini at wap.org  Wed May  5 20:21:24 2010
From: dave.ottalini at wap.org (Dave Ottalini)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:21:24 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <4BE20870.1050206@gate.net>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BE20870.1050206@gate.net>
Message-ID: <204C367E-5DDF-4A3D-8C38-1D4D66F5D09E@wap.org>

To my knowledge no one ever did use a Disk // on a /// save maybe Bob Consorti at ON THREE.. The ///+ used a dongle so you could use the old external drives - they never made  "new" ones with connectors that matched the ones they put on the ///+

Dave Ottalini




From wkemper at ti.com  Thu May  6 08:35:50 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 07:35:50 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <4BE20870.1050206@gate.net>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BE20870.1050206@gate.net>
Message-ID: <E5B50CCE-98C1-4CD8-9AE7-8C342E0732A6@ti.com>

I have no special ///+ pinout for the Disk port, so I assume it is just the connector.
However you have to "clip off" a certain pin on the adaptor, so maybe there is a difference.

Is it compatible to the Unidisk connector?

By the way the Unidisk 3.5, will it connect to the build in port of the /// or do you need a interface card?

I have so for not found any detailed information. Maybe it is on the WAP DVD but I have just started to read through the documents on it.



Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 5, 2010, at 7:08 PM, Louis Schulman wrote:

> OK, on the subject of floppy drives.  Someone mentioned that they 
> thought the DB connector on the ///+ had something to do with the 
> possible use of a unidisk or duodisk, since the Disk /// never had a plug.
> 
> The plugs are not the same, the one on the ///+ has more pins.
> 
> Can you plug in a unidisk or duodisk to a ///+ floppy port, using some 
> sort of adapter?  Or are they completely different animals?
> 
> Louis
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wkemper at ti.com  Thu May  6 08:48:13 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 07:48:13 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
In-Reply-To: <4BE209C3.7050604@brouhaha.com>
References: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net> <4BE209C3.7050604@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <AFC6369D-DED6-4863-A5AD-EB524BB899E9@ti.com>

The IIe card sounds like a nice idea, especially if you could fit it into one slot only.
However IIe's are still floating around for free or for low $, so I assume the motivation to shell out $100-$200 for a plugin for the /// is not very high.

I personally would be willing to pay for a interface to modern computer. Like a Ethernet or bluetooth or wifi card which allows to use my iMac as a software server.

The Apple// community has a fileserver project which does not need any extra hardware. I have not used it so I do not know how well it works.

With the ///'s superior capabilities this should be also possible . However I am not a software guru , so I can't judge it right.




Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 5, 2010, at 7:13 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> On 05/05/2010 04:31 PM, Louis Schulman wrote:
>> Usually, you can't give a III away.  A III+ is probably more desirable, but this is very high.
> I'd love to get a ///+, but I certainly wouldn't pay that much for it.  I might have been willing to pay that much for a ///+ with a /// plus //e card, had I known about it in time.
> 
> I'd love to reverse-engineer a schematic for a /// plus //e card, redesign it to use a CPLD and higher density memory chips, and get some made, but I'd have to either acquire or borrow the card for the reverse-engineering.
> 
> Eric
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wkemper at ti.com  Thu May  6 10:04:18 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:04:18 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
In-Reply-To: <4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net>
References: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net>
Message-ID: <54E39E8C-F531-4D20-A8DD-8F5080117D76@ti.com>

Since I brought my Apple /// I monitor eBay to get a feeling for the prices.
I know I should have done it vice versa.

With Apple /// bare-bone in the $300-400 range and the recent sale I feel guilty that I have even argued with the seller of my /// about the price.

Maybe I should restrict my hardware hacking a bit as it looks I am tooling around with some valuable device.

On the other hand that's the fun I have out of the vintage computing.
I have a couple Apple II's and they have all seen more or less hardware hacking.



Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 5, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Louis Schulman wrote:

> Usually, you can't give a III away.  A III+ is probably more desirable, but this is very high.
> 
> But, it is in very good condition (although the color in the pictures was obviously made gray to emphasize that there was no yellowing), and three people were willing to pay over $600.
> 
> The /// plus //e card is rare, but as a practical matter if you want to use a //e, the best thing is to get a //e.  And it doesn't have the 512k upgrade.
> 
> It is nice to know my ///+ is that valuable.  I am pretty sure I got it for free.
> 
> Louis
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/5/2010 6:48 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
>> Just witnessed this auction:
>> Apple III Plus Computer - Working & Very Hard to Find!!
>> 
>> Is this a fair price for a /// +with Titan card?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> 
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>> 
>>   
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From jj_penner at yahoo.ca  Thu May  6 12:51:08 2010
From: jj_penner at yahoo.ca (Jerry Penner)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:51:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
Message-ID: <498742.7138.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 19:31:02 -0400
> From: Louis Schulman <louiss at gate.net>
> Subject: Re: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
> To: Wolfgang Kemper <wolfgang at die-kempers.de>
> Cc: Apple/// <apple3-l at news.altair.com>
> Message-ID: <4BE1FFB6.6080809 at gate.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> Usually, you can't give a III away.  A III+ is probably more desirable, 
> but this is very high.

I've been looking for a III for some time now, and the prices always seem very high.  If someone knows of someone that is looking to send their old III to a nice home, I would be glad to take it off their hands...


Jerry

PS:  long-time lurker here...  enjoying the various discussions.



From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Thu May  6 22:35:51 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:35:51 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
In-Reply-To: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
References: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF69011915@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> Just witnessed this auction:
> Apple III Plus Computer - Working & Very Hard to Find!!
> Is this a fair price for a /// +with Titan card?

Given that a ///+ without the Titan just sold for $427, it sounds about
market price.


> Louis Schulman wrote:
> Usually, you can't give a III away.  A III+ is probably
> more desirable, but this is very high.

I disagree with the wording "very high"; keep in mind guys: the
collectible market is just like the art market. Would you pay 20 million
bucks for a Picasso that a 6-year-old can paint just the same? Not me.
But what the heck.

> Eric Smith wrote:
> I'd love to reverse-engineer a schematic for a /// plus //e
> card, redesign it to use a CPLD and higher density memory chips,
> and get some made, but I'd have to either acquire or borrow the
> card for the reverse-engineering.

Cool project.

Michel.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri May  7 07:20:18 2010
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 04:20:18 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
In-Reply-To: <AFC6369D-DED6-4863-A5AD-EB524BB899E9@ti.com>
References: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net> <4BE209C3.7050604@brouhaha.com>
	<AFC6369D-DED6-4863-A5AD-EB524BB899E9@ti.com>
Message-ID: <4BE3F772.7050106@brouhaha.com>

Wolfgang Kemper wrote about my proposed ///+//e reverse engineering project:
> The IIe card sounds like a nice idea, especially if you could fit it into one slot only.d in
>    
It should be easy to fit it in one card, unless they are using the I/O 
address space of multiple cards.

> However IIe's are still floating around for free or for low $, so I assume the motivation to shell out $100-$200 for a plugin for the /// is not very high.
>    
Probably not.  I'm interested in it just for my own use, not because I 
think I could sell it.  If a few people were willing to buy them, that 
would reduce my total cash outlay, because it costs about the same 
amount for me to make a single unit or ten units.

Eric


From wkemper at ti.com  Fri May  7 17:36:59 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 16:36:59 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
In-Reply-To: <4BE3F772.7050106@brouhaha.com>
References: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net> <4BE209C3.7050604@brouhaha.com>
	<AFC6369D-DED6-4863-A5AD-EB524BB899E9@ti.com>
	<4BE3F772.7050106@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <31EC87B4-6D4C-4F04-9DE9-CB21B7EA1E90@ti.com>

> 
>> However IIe's are still floating around for free or for low $, so I assume the motivation to shell out $100-$200 for a plugin for the /// is not very high.
>> 
> Probably not.  I'm interested in it just for my own use, not because I 
> think I could sell it.  If a few people were willing to buy them, that 
> would reduce my total cash outlay, because it costs about the same 
> amount for me to make a single unit or ten units.

Well that's the spirit  I admire ! 
Unfortunately I can not help with aTitan card but with the given technology maybe it would be easier to start from scratch and think about how to achieve the task of emulating an IIe.

Does anyone know if the Titan card was like the IIe card for the Macintosh?
Meaning that it was practically a whole IIe on a card just interfacing to the keyboard and the screen?

Wolfgang

From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Fri May  7 20:01:30 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 17:01:30 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <4BE20870.1050206@gate.net>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de><471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local><4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net><471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BE20870.1050206@gate.net>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901B84F@newserver.arneill-py.local>

Question for Wolfgang:

With the all-straight pinout, does the drive light/motor on the external
drive stay on all the time?

> Louis Schulman
> Can you plug in a unidisk or duodisk to a ///+ floppy port, using
> some sort of adapter?  Or are they completely different animals?

Same as the disk ][; some adapter will be required possibly inverting a
signal or some decoding logic, but they are very similar animals.


From dave.ottalini at wap.org  Fri May  7 23:49:34 2010
From: dave.ottalini at wap.org (Dave Ottalini)
Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 23:49:34 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Titan //+2e
Message-ID: <23F5CD4A-2C6E-4272-AFB2-02049EDF39E3@wap.org>

See attached... 

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From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Sat May  8 12:32:07 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 11:32:07 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ vs Disk ///
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901B84F@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <EC4CAAB0-6F60-4A63-BF51-78733E7B056A@die-kempers.de><471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E0@newserver.arneill-py.local><4BD7689A.5010300@gate.net><471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF690118E4@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BE20870.1050206@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901B84F@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <BC7358BD-544A-4911-B970-DFA8A92E536C@die-kempers.de>

Michel,
the noname I have used has the defect of having the LED always on.
The original Disk][ does not.

This Sunday I have planned o fix an adapter for the disk][ and I hope that then also the write cycle does work.

I played with my breadboard adapter a little and sometimes the write does work.
So I guess by having a better connection between the /// and the disk][ it would fix the problem



On May 7, 2010, at 7:01 PM, Michel Py wrote:

> Question for Wolfgang:
> 
> With the all-straight pinout, does the drive light/motor on the external
> drive stay on all the time?
> 
>> Louis Schulman
>> Can you plug in a unidisk or duodisk to a ///+ floppy port, using
>> some sort of adapter?  Or are they completely different animals?
> 
> Same as the disk ][; some adapter will be required possibly inverting a
> signal or some decoding logic, but they are very similar animals.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Sat May  8 13:40:10 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:40:10 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
	<B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>
	<9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>
Message-ID: <A8E01A7A-26AD-4A30-8C65-C045BB322135@gmail.com>

Wolfgang,

I finally was home long enough to pull all my CF's.  My most important one will not mount with CiderPress 3.0.1 (file system has an infinite loop error) but works fine in SOS on the CFFA card.  I can also mount it in the IIGS emulator "KEGS" successfully.  I emailed the author of CiderPress to see if he would be interested in reviewing the .po image of my CF to see if it has a real problem or if there is really something wrong with the SOS/ProDOS layout of the card.  If he's willing to look at it, I will send him the image.

For now after supper I am going to use a hex editor and verify the structure of the file manually.  Hopefully the problem is just a glitch in CiderPress reading SOS-formatted CF cards, though. I really do not want to re-transfer all the images off the ProFiles again :)

Thanks,

Jeff

On Apr 27, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:

> Jeff,
> I have no trouble with Prodos CF's .
> 
> Recently I have installed Pascal1.3 on a CFFA and have a nice Pascal environment on my IIe.
> Until I pulled the card for the Apple /// that is. ;-)
> 
> I have to check but I think I have a 2.o card.
> But this card might has some trouble anyhow as I was never able to run two CF cards in it.
> The slot configuration was also corrupt and I am not able to restore it for Slot 2 in the IIe. 
> Sounds confusing but it is a long story and I have done quite some experimenting with it.
> 
> I will check out the iTerm method, can you please elaborate what you do in iTerm to back up the CF?
> 
> Regards,
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 27, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
> 
>> Wolfgang,
>> 
>> Which version of the CFFA do you have?  Mine is a 2.0 card.  I have not run into any compatibility conflicts with it so far.
>> 
>> I just use dd to backup the CF card at the OS X level.  If I have to restore it, I just reverse the process to another card (just to be sure the data is good before wiping out the original).  When OS X offers to format the CF, I just cancel and head right to iTerm.  The command:  sudo dmesg
>> will show what device the CF card is bound to in OS X.
>> 
>> I have used Ciderpress but only under Boot Camp, not under emulation.  Back when I set up my cards, Parallels had poor USB support.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>> 
>>> Jeff,David,
>>> 
>>> In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
>>> I have some questions for you.
>>> 
>>> 1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
>>>   So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
>>>   I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
>>> 2) So far I have seen this problem :
>>>   ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
>>>      and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?
>>> 
>>> 			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Wolfgang
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> breaks
>>> 
>> 
> 

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From louiss at gate.net  Sat May  8 14:42:16 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 14:42:16 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Titan //+2e
In-Reply-To: <23F5CD4A-2C6E-4272-AFB2-02049EDF39E3@wap.org>
References: <23F5CD4A-2C6E-4272-AFB2-02049EDF39E3@wap.org>
Message-ID: <4BE5B088.7070805@gate.net>

Hi Dave,

I have only the /// plus // card, but presume the same thing may apply 
to the jumpers.

I haven't been able to find any information on this card.  Does it 
require a special boot disk, or does it just use the regular // 
emulation disk?  If it needs a special disk, does someone have an 
image?  Is there supposed to be an empty socket at UF1 in the upper 
right corner of the board?  Is there a manual out there somewhere?

Dave, I love the Apple /// DVD and we are all indebted to you.  I do 
have a hard time finding things on it, however.  If any of these things 
are answered on the disk, I apologize.

Louis

On 5/7/2010 11:49 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:
> See attached...
>
>    
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>    
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From louiss at gate.net  Sat May  8 15:56:05 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 15:56:05 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Titan //+2e
In-Reply-To: <4BE5B088.7070805@gate.net>
References: <23F5CD4A-2C6E-4272-AFB2-02049EDF39E3@wap.org>
	<4BE5B088.7070805@gate.net>
Message-ID: <4BE5C1D5.3060706@gate.net>

My bad.  I found the /// plus // disks in the WAP public domain files.

Thanks Dave.

Louis

On 5/8/2010 2:42 PM, Louis Schulman wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> I have only the /// plus // card, but presume the same thing may apply 
> to the jumpers.
>
> I haven't been able to find any information on this card.  Does it 
> require a special boot disk, or does it just use the regular // 
> emulation disk?  If it needs a special disk, does someone have an 
> image?  Is there supposed to be an empty socket at UF1 in the upper 
> right corner of the board?  Is there a manual out there somewhere?
>
> Dave, I love the Apple /// DVD and we are all indebted to you.  I do 
> have a hard time finding things on it, however.  If any of these 
> things are answered on the disk, I apologize.
>
> Louis
>
> On 5/7/2010 11:49 PM, Dave Ottalini wrote:
>> See attached...
>>
>>    
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>>    
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From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat May  8 22:56:49 2010
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 19:56:49 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Ebay Auction
In-Reply-To: <31EC87B4-6D4C-4F04-9DE9-CB21B7EA1E90@ti.com>
References: <59B745C8-2E10-417A-B63C-DD218C3A3E4F@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE1FFB6.6080809@gate.net> <4BE209C3.7050604@brouhaha.com>
	<AFC6369D-DED6-4863-A5AD-EB524BB899E9@ti.com>
	<4BE3F772.7050106@brouhaha.com>
	<31EC87B4-6D4C-4F04-9DE9-CB21B7EA1E90@ti.com>
Message-ID: <4BE62471.1050608@brouhaha.com>

On 05/07/2010 02:36 PM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> Well that's the spirit  I admire !
> Unfortunately I can not help with aTitan card but with the given technology maybe it would be easier to start from scratch and think about how to achieve the task of emulating an IIe.
>    
If I were to start from scratch as you suggest, I wouldn't even put it 
in the Apple ///.  It's easier just to make it standalone.


From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Sun May  9 00:32:41 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 23:32:41 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <A8E01A7A-26AD-4A30-8C65-C045BB322135@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
	<B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>
	<9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>
	<A8E01A7A-26AD-4A30-8C65-C045BB322135@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0A33D20F-BAF1-4602-B958-CE6CC168ADA7@die-kempers.de>

Jeff,
I may have a piece to the puzzle.

I have formatted a CF card with the /// CFFA utilities in a way that the first 100 blocks where skipped.
I did this just out of curiosity and because the partition tool allowed it.
The CF card works fine in the /// and I can mount it under Ciderpress.
But....I see the prodos directory of the data I had on the CF card while it was in my Apple ][

I have not any knowledge about how the CFFA driver handles directories so I can not explain what I have done and why it works on the CFFA in the Apple ///.

Wolfgang





On May 8, 2010, at 12:40 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> Wolfgang,
> 
> I finally was home long enough to pull all my CF's.  My most important one will not mount with CiderPress 3.0.1 (file system has an infinite loop error) but works fine in SOS on the CFFA card.  I can also mount it in the IIGS emulator "KEGS" successfully.  I emailed the author of CiderPress to see if he would be interested in reviewing the .po image of my CF to see if it has a real problem or if there is really something wrong with the SOS/ProDOS layout of the card.  If he's willing to look at it, I will send him the image.
> 
> For now after supper I am going to use a hex editor and verify the structure of the file manually.  Hopefully the problem is just a glitch in CiderPress reading SOS-formatted CF cards, though. I really do not want to re-transfer all the images off the ProFiles again :)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Apr 27, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> 
>> Jeff,
>> I have no trouble with Prodos CF's .
>> 
>> Recently I have installed Pascal1.3 on a CFFA and have a nice Pascal environment on my IIe.
>> Until I pulled the card for the Apple /// that is. ;-)
>> 
>> I have to check but I think I have a 2.o card.
>> But this card might has some trouble anyhow as I was never able to run two CF cards in it.
>> The slot configuration was also corrupt and I am not able to restore it for Slot 2 in the IIe. 
>> Sounds confusing but it is a long story and I have done quite some experimenting with it.
>> 
>> I will check out the iTerm method, can you please elaborate what you do in iTerm to back up the CF?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>> 
>>> Wolfgang,
>>> 
>>> Which version of the CFFA do you have?  Mine is a 2.0 card.  I have not run into any compatibility conflicts with it so far.
>>> 
>>> I just use dd to backup the CF card at the OS X level.  If I have to restore it, I just reverse the process to another card (just to be sure the data is good before wiping out the original).  When OS X offers to format the CF, I just cancel and head right to iTerm.  The command:  sudo dmesg
>>> will show what device the CF card is bound to in OS X.
>>> 
>>> I have used Ciderpress but only under Boot Camp, not under emulation.  Back when I set up my cards, Parallels had poor USB support.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Jeff
>>> 
>>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Jeff,David,
>>>> 
>>>> In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
>>>> I have some questions for you.
>>>> 
>>>> 1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
>>>>  So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
>>>>  I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
>>>> 2) So far I have seen this problem :
>>>>  ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
>>>>     and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?
>>>> 
>>>> 			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Wolfgang
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>> breaks
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Sun May  9 14:00:14 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 13:00:14 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on a Apple ///  Update!
Message-ID: <F352807E-FF92-4576-9872-390D5700B4FF@die-kempers.de>

Hi,
just wanted to keep you updated on my experiment.

I have build the most simple adapter one could think about.

Just a 26 lines flat ribbon cable with a 25 pin connector and a 20 pin connector on the other side.
The 6 missing pins are simply open ended.

Here is what I found so far:

1. you have to set your system to two drives only 
2. booting from .d1 works
3. reading from .d2 works
4. formatting of .d2 works
5. copying of data from the profile or CFFA to .d1 or .d2 works 

Here it comes:

6. volume copy of .d1 to .d2 does not work


What I notice is that during volume copy suddenly both drives become active and I get the error message "Volume not found"

So I assume in this situation I do need to check out the other select lines coming from the /// during a volume copy.
This will take some time as I have no storage scope or digital analyzer.
I guess I need to haul the /// for a weekend session into the TI labs. 

If someone can help me by looking into the formatter assembly code and let me know what exactly happens on the enable lines during a volume copy that would be great!

Wolfgang







 

From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Sun May  9 17:14:14 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:14:14 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// surprises
Message-ID: <C2A52108-EAA6-4DAD-8013-AF0066A4B334@die-kempers.de>

After my Disk ][ experiment got on hold for the moment I decided to do some more discovery .

First surprise was that I checked on the other monitor output and decided to check out if the RGB Monitor from the IIgs would fit.

Well it works surprisingly good.

I could run the demo and enjoyed the running horses in color.

Anybody knows what originally was used as a color monitor?
The Apple RGB was much later and I did not found any Apple Color Monitor dated in 1980.



Next surprise came up when I tried to find a good spot for the CFFA activity LED.

I did not want to drill any hole into the /// so I thought a cool spot would be the "On" sign on the Keyboard.

As the little lamp which is there is way to bright to allow a LED beside it, I just popped it out and replaced the spot with the LED.
Now whenever I access the CFFA card the "ON" would light up in dim red.

But I have changed it back! To my big surprise the Apple /// comes on with the system self check when the lamp is not in place!

Boy oh boy, first  it scared the heck out of me and I thought I damaged something.
Took me the better half of an hour to figure out that it was just the little lamp.
It did not crossed my mind that this little 12V lamp sitting on the supply line would have caused this effect.

This must be the brainchild of Apple Marketing that you have to call service when this little lamp is burned out.
And to make you to call the service they annoy you with the system self test running in endless loops.(Until you hit reset)

So had some fun and learned more about the ///

Cant wait to stumble into the next self made trouble :-)

Wolfgang





From louiss at gate.net  Sun May  9 18:16:37 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 18:16:37 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// surprises
In-Reply-To: <C2A52108-EAA6-4DAD-8013-AF0066A4B334@die-kempers.de>
References: <C2A52108-EAA6-4DAD-8013-AF0066A4B334@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <4BE73445.2040901@gate.net>

While, as you say, the IIGS monitor works, you will find that the colors 
are wrong.  The output of the /// video is digital xRGB, which is unique 
to the /// and the AppleColor video card for the //.

The correct monitor is the AppleColor 100 RGB, which came out around 
1983.  It has a power tilt screen and weighs a ton.  It has a good 
picture, though.

There were also a very few after market monitors that could handle xRGB 
directly.  One was an Electrohome model.  Electrohome made many of the 
early video game displays.

It was pretty easy to may a resistor network which turned the digital 
video output into a more commonly available video output.  I think the 
/// manual explained how to do this, since, as you say, there was no 
appropriate monitor when the /// came out.

Oh, and as you discovered, a /// won't work without the power light.  
You didn't know that? :-(  I would have thought it was obvious :-0

There is no end to the self-made trouble you can cause on a ///.

Louis

On 5/9/2010 5:14 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> After my Disk ][ experiment got on hold for the moment I decided to do some more discovery .
>
> First surprise was that I checked on the other monitor output and decided to check out if the RGB Monitor from the IIgs would fit.
>
> Well it works surprisingly good.
>
> I could run the demo and enjoyed the running horses in color.
>
> Anybody knows what originally was used as a color monitor?
> The Apple RGB was much later and I did not found any Apple Color Monitor dated in 1980.
>
>
>
> Next surprise came up when I tried to find a good spot for the CFFA activity LED.
>
> I did not want to drill any hole into the /// so I thought a cool spot would be the "On" sign on the Keyboard.
>
> As the little lamp which is there is way to bright to allow a LED beside it, I just popped it out and replaced the spot with the LED.
> Now whenever I access the CFFA card the "ON" would light up in dim red.
>
> But I have changed it back! To my big surprise the Apple /// comes on with the system self check when the lamp is not in place!
>
> Boy oh boy, first  it scared the heck out of me and I thought I damaged something.
> Took me the better half of an hour to figure out that it was just the little lamp.
> It did not crossed my mind that this little 12V lamp sitting on the supply line would have caused this effect.
>
> This must be the brainchild of Apple Marketing that you have to call service when this little lamp is burned out.
> And to make you to call the service they annoy you with the system self test running in endless loops.(Until you hit reset)
>
> So had some fun and learned more about the ///
>
> Cant wait to stumble into the next self made trouble :-)
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>
>    

From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Sun May  9 23:04:51 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 22:04:51 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// surprises
In-Reply-To: <4BE73445.2040901@gate.net>
References: <C2A52108-EAA6-4DAD-8013-AF0066A4B334@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE73445.2040901@gate.net>
Message-ID: <A710A702-84B1-46A6-B5C6-6DA1286292CE@die-kempers.de>

Louis,
good point with the color.
So the colors are wrong?

I had run the dealers diagnostic software and some pictures looked odd.
But when I saw the rainbow color plots I thought all is working OK.

I have to run it again and check it out.


About the power lamp. 
The /// will run just fine, all you have to do is to press reset and it will boot and not bother you again...until you do a cold boot.

I wonder how much money the service technicians had made by just popping the keyboard cover and replacing the bulb.

Reminds me on my old Mercedes where I had a light bulb in the dashboard out.
I was such a fool to tell the Mercedes guys to fix it together with the regular service.
After I got the bill I told them that I was asking for a new bulb not a new car.


Wolfgang 
On May 9, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Louis Schulman wrote:

> While, as you say, the IIGS monitor works, you will find that the colors are wrong.  The output of the /// video is digital xRGB, which is unique to the /// and the AppleColor video card for the //.
> 
> The correct monitor is the AppleColor 100 RGB, which came out around 1983.  It has a power tilt screen and weighs a ton.  It has a good picture, though.
> 
> There were also a very few after market monitors that could handle xRGB directly.  One was an Electrohome model.  Electrohome made many of the early video game displays.
> 
> It was pretty easy to may a resistor network which turned the digital video output into a more commonly available video output.  I think the /// manual explained how to do this, since, as you say, there was no appropriate monitor when the /// came out.
> 
> Oh, and as you discovered, a /// won't work without the power light.  You didn't know that? :-(  I would have thought it was obvious :-0
> 
> There is no end to the self-made trouble you can cause on a ///.
> 
> Louis
> 
> On 5/9/2010 5:14 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
>> After my Disk ][ experiment got on hold for the moment I decided to do some more discovery .
>> 
>> First surprise was that I checked on the other monitor output and decided to check out if the RGB Monitor from the IIgs would fit.
>> 
>> Well it works surprisingly good.
>> 
>> I could run the demo and enjoyed the running horses in color.
>> 
>> Anybody knows what originally was used as a color monitor?
>> The Apple RGB was much later and I did not found any Apple Color Monitor dated in 1980.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Next surprise came up when I tried to find a good spot for the CFFA activity LED.
>> 
>> I did not want to drill any hole into the /// so I thought a cool spot would be the "On" sign on the Keyboard.
>> 
>> As the little lamp which is there is way to bright to allow a LED beside it, I just popped it out and replaced the spot with the LED.
>> Now whenever I access the CFFA card the "ON" would light up in dim red.
>> 
>> But I have changed it back! To my big surprise the Apple /// comes on with the system self check when the lamp is not in place!
>> 
>> Boy oh boy, first  it scared the heck out of me and I thought I damaged something.
>> Took me the better half of an hour to figure out that it was just the little lamp.
>> It did not crossed my mind that this little 12V lamp sitting on the supply line would have caused this effect.
>> 
>> This must be the brainchild of Apple Marketing that you have to call service when this little lamp is burned out.
>> And to make you to call the service they annoy you with the system self test running in endless loops.(Until you hit reset)
>> 
>> So had some fun and learned more about the ///
>> 
>> Cant wait to stumble into the next self made trouble :-)
>> 
>> Wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>> 
>>   


From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Sun May  9 23:34:37 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 22:34:37 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// surprises
In-Reply-To: <A710A702-84B1-46A6-B5C6-6DA1286292CE@die-kempers.de>
References: <C2A52108-EAA6-4DAD-8013-AF0066A4B334@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE73445.2040901@gate.net>
	<A710A702-84B1-46A6-B5C6-6DA1286292CE@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <5B8BB6E5-A080-44F1-8C5C-229B7F407AB2@die-kempers.de>

Yeep, the colors are wrong.

Did not pay attention to the color names.

Anyhow the game of life does now make on a color monitor sense. On the monochrome is was kind of static  :-)


On May 9, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:

> Louis,
> good point with the color.
> So the colors are wrong?
> 
> I had run the dealers diagnostic software and some pictures looked odd.
> But when I saw the rainbow color plots I thought all is working OK.
> 
> I have to run it again and check it out.
> 
> 
> About the power lamp. 
> The /// will run just fine, all you have to do is to press reset and it will boot and not bother you again...until you do a cold boot.
> 
> I wonder how much money the service technicians had made by just popping the keyboard cover and replacing the bulb.
> 
> Reminds me on my old Mercedes where I had a light bulb in the dashboard out.
> I was such a fool to tell the Mercedes guys to fix it together with the regular service.
> After I got the bill I told them that I was asking for a new bulb not a new car.
> 
> 
> Wolfgang 
> On May 9, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Louis Schulman wrote:
> 
>> While, as you say, the IIGS monitor works, you will find that the colors are wrong.  The output of the /// video is digital xRGB, which is unique to the /// and the AppleColor video card for the //.
>> 
>> The correct monitor is the AppleColor 100 RGB, which came out around 1983.  It has a power tilt screen and weighs a ton.  It has a good picture, though.
>> 
>> There were also a very few after market monitors that could handle xRGB directly.  One was an Electrohome model.  Electrohome made many of the early video game displays.
>> 
>> It was pretty easy to may a resistor network which turned the digital video output into a more commonly available video output.  I think the /// manual explained how to do this, since, as you say, there was no appropriate monitor when the /// came out.
>> 
>> Oh, and as you discovered, a /// won't work without the power light.  You didn't know that? :-(  I would have thought it was obvious :-0
>> 
>> There is no end to the self-made trouble you can cause on a ///.
>> 
>> Louis
>> 
>> On 5/9/2010 5:14 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
>>> After my Disk ][ experiment got on hold for the moment I decided to do some more discovery .
>>> 
>>> First surprise was that I checked on the other monitor output and decided to check out if the RGB Monitor from the IIgs would fit.
>>> 
>>> Well it works surprisingly good.
>>> 
>>> I could run the demo and enjoyed the running horses in color.
>>> 
>>> Anybody knows what originally was used as a color monitor?
>>> The Apple RGB was much later and I did not found any Apple Color Monitor dated in 1980.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Next surprise came up when I tried to find a good spot for the CFFA activity LED.
>>> 
>>> I did not want to drill any hole into the /// so I thought a cool spot would be the "On" sign on the Keyboard.
>>> 
>>> As the little lamp which is there is way to bright to allow a LED beside it, I just popped it out and replaced the spot with the LED.
>>> Now whenever I access the CFFA card the "ON" would light up in dim red.
>>> 
>>> But I have changed it back! To my big surprise the Apple /// comes on with the system self check when the lamp is not in place!
>>> 
>>> Boy oh boy, first  it scared the heck out of me and I thought I damaged something.
>>> Took me the better half of an hour to figure out that it was just the little lamp.
>>> It did not crossed my mind that this little 12V lamp sitting on the supply line would have caused this effect.
>>> 
>>> This must be the brainchild of Apple Marketing that you have to call service when this little lamp is burned out.
>>> And to make you to call the service they annoy you with the system self test running in endless loops.(Until you hit reset)
>>> 
>>> So had some fun and learned more about the ///
>>> 
>>> Cant wait to stumble into the next self made trouble :-)
>>> 
>>> Wolfgang
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Apple3-L mailing list
>>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From david.ottalini at verizon.net  Mon May 10 07:46:32 2010
From: david.ottalini at verizon.net (David Ottalini)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 07:46:32 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// surprises
In-Reply-To: <4BE73445.2040901@gate.net>
References: <C2A52108-EAA6-4DAD-8013-AF0066A4B334@die-kempers.de>
	<4BE73445.2040901@gate.net>
Message-ID: <49DC95DF-1803-4474-9594-C440C79D90FA@verizon.net>


Actually - the manual from Apple was WRONG on the resistor network... On Three - in it's Draw On Three manual had the correct schematic. If I can find it, I'll pass it along..

Dave



From wkemper at ti.com  Mon May 10 10:17:26 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:17:26 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <A8E01A7A-26AD-4A30-8C65-C045BB322135@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
	<B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>
	<9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>
	<A8E01A7A-26AD-4A30-8C65-C045BB322135@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9221A405-4ED9-4DEC-8AF0-23AB07FE866D@ti.com>

Jeff,
remind Andy that I have actually paid for his software.
I might was the last one to do so because right after I paid he made it free of charge.

Guess my payment was the last bit he needed to become rich and a philanthropist  (LOL).



Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 8, 2010, at 12:40 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> Wolfgang,
> 
> I finally was home long enough to pull all my CF's.  My most important one will not mount with CiderPress 3.0.1 (file system has an infinite loop error) but works fine in SOS on the CFFA card.  I can also mount it in the IIGS emulator "KEGS" successfully.  I emailed the author of CiderPress to see if he would be interested in reviewing the .po image of my CF to see if it has a real problem or if there is really something wrong with the SOS/ProDOS layout of the card.  If he's willing to look at it, I will send him the image.
> 
> For now after supper I am going to use a hex editor and verify the structure of the file manually.  Hopefully the problem is just a glitch in CiderPress reading SOS-formatted CF cards, though. I really do not want to re-transfer all the images off the ProFiles again :)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Apr 27, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> 
>> Jeff,
>> I have no trouble with Prodos CF's .
>> 
>> Recently I have installed Pascal1.3 on a CFFA and have a nice Pascal environment on my IIe.
>> Until I pulled the card for the Apple /// that is. ;-)
>> 
>> I have to check but I think I have a 2.o card.
>> But this card might has some trouble anyhow as I was never able to run two CF cards in it.
>> The slot configuration was also corrupt and I am not able to restore it for Slot 2 in the IIe. 
>> Sounds confusing but it is a long story and I have done quite some experimenting with it.
>> 
>> I will check out the iTerm method, can you please elaborate what you do in iTerm to back up the CF?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>> 
>>> Wolfgang,
>>> 
>>> Which version of the CFFA do you have?  Mine is a 2.0 card.  I have not run into any compatibility conflicts with it so far.
>>> 
>>> I just use dd to backup the CF card at the OS X level.  If I have to restore it, I just reverse the process to another card (just to be sure the data is good before wiping out the original).  When OS X offers to format the CF, I just cancel and head right to iTerm.  The command:  sudo dmesg
>>> will show what device the CF card is bound to in OS X.
>>> 
>>> I have used Ciderpress but only under Boot Camp, not under emulation.  Back when I set up my cards, Parallels had poor USB support.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Jeff
>>> 
>>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Jeff,David,
>>>> 
>>>> In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
>>>> I have some questions for you.
>>>> 
>>>> 1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
>>>>  So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
>>>>  I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
>>>> 2) So far I have seen this problem :
>>>>  ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
>>>>     and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?
>>>> 
>>>> 			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Wolfgang
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>> breaks
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 


From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Mon May 10 10:19:21 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:19:21 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] CFFA card in an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <9221A405-4ED9-4DEC-8AF0-23AB07FE866D@ti.com>
References: <mailman.1.1272124801.1618.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BD32835.8090803@attglobal.net>
	<q2z1532819b1004241035xadda8a96yb66bea7f64ad4c29@mail.gmail.com>
	<9A6343A4-D2EA-4CE1-AD58-56D06C3F5FDA@ti.com>
	<B5A2D35B-A5C4-4D5A-9C1E-007DC578AC3B@gmail.com>
	<9C1AB4E8-DF7E-4786-AF18-66469EEAA961@ti.com>
	<A8E01A7A-26AD-4A30-8C65-C045BB322135@gmail.com>
	<9221A405-4ED9-4DEC-8AF0-23AB07FE866D@ti.com>
Message-ID: <48ED7486-4711-46C0-923D-09F135B942D5@gmail.com>

Hehe so did I :)  I would think it would be simple to fix since Apple ][+ formatted ProDOS volumes on the CFFA are working fine with Ciderpress. 

Thanks,

Jeff

On May 10, 2010, at 10:17 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:

> Jeff,
> remind Andy that I have actually paid for his software.
> I might was the last one to do so because right after I paid he made it free of charge.
> 
> Guess my payment was the last bit he needed to become rich and a philanthropist  (LOL).
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> On May 8, 2010, at 12:40 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
> 
>> Wolfgang,
>> 
>> I finally was home long enough to pull all my CF's.  My most important one will not mount with CiderPress 3.0.1 (file system has an infinite loop error) but works fine in SOS on the CFFA card.  I can also mount it in the IIGS emulator "KEGS" successfully.  I emailed the author of CiderPress to see if he would be interested in reviewing the .po image of my CF to see if it has a real problem or if there is really something wrong with the SOS/ProDOS layout of the card.  If he's willing to look at it, I will send him the image.
>> 
>> For now after supper I am going to use a hex editor and verify the structure of the file manually.  Hopefully the problem is just a glitch in CiderPress reading SOS-formatted CF cards, though. I really do not want to re-transfer all the images off the ProFiles again :)
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>> 
>>> Jeff,
>>> I have no trouble with Prodos CF's .
>>> 
>>> Recently I have installed Pascal1.3 on a CFFA and have a nice Pascal environment on my IIe.
>>> Until I pulled the card for the Apple /// that is. ;-)
>>> 
>>> I have to check but I think I have a 2.o card.
>>> But this card might has some trouble anyhow as I was never able to run two CF cards in it.
>>> The slot configuration was also corrupt and I am not able to restore it for Slot 2 in the IIe. 
>>> Sounds confusing but it is a long story and I have done quite some experimenting with it.
>>> 
>>> I will check out the iTerm method, can you please elaborate what you do in iTerm to back up the CF?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Wolfgang
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Wolfgang,
>>>> 
>>>> Which version of the CFFA do you have?  Mine is a 2.0 card.  I have not run into any compatibility conflicts with it so far.
>>>> 
>>>> I just use dd to backup the CF card at the OS X level.  If I have to restore it, I just reverse the process to another card (just to be sure the data is good before wiping out the original).  When OS X offers to format the CF, I just cancel and head right to iTerm.  The command:  sudo dmesg
>>>> will show what device the CF card is bound to in OS X.
>>>> 
>>>> I have used Ciderpress but only under Boot Camp, not under emulation.  Back when I set up my cards, Parallels had poor USB support.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Jeff
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Jeff,David,
>>>>> 
>>>>> In my reply to Michel I have mentioned that I have now moved my CFFA from my Apple IIe to the Apple ///.
>>>>> I have some questions for you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1) Jeff said to back up the CF card. When I try to open it with Ciderpress I get a error about a unknown file format.
>>>>> So how can you back up the CF card? Or do you not see this problem? Is there a other way to back up the CF cards?
>>>>> I use an iMac with virtualization software to run Ciderpress. OSX itself is allways unhappy with CF cards coming from the CFFA, so I     	have to make the detour through Windows.
>>>>> 2) So far I have seen this problem :
>>>>> ADT does not work with a installed CFFA card, I get a system failure when booting the ADT disk from floppy
>>>>>    and the same error if I use the bootstrapping method. Any Idea how to explain this behavior? Can you verify this ?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 			ADT works fine if I have pulled the card.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Wolfgang
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 24, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> breaks
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 

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From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Mon May 10 22:40:36 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:40:36 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on a Apple ///  Update!
In-Reply-To: <F352807E-FF92-4576-9872-390D5700B4FF@die-kempers.de>
References: <F352807E-FF92-4576-9872-390D5700B4FF@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901191C@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> 6. volume copy of .d1 to .d2 does not work
> What I notice is that during volume copy suddenly both drives become
> active and I get the error message "Volume not found"

No surprise here. That pinout many of us tried it ways back when.

> So I assume in this situation I do need to check out the other
> select lines coming from the /// during a volume copy. This will
> take some time as I have no storage scope or digital analyzer.

You may not need one (I'd kill to have one). Given the expected changes,
LEDs displaying the status are probably good enough to figure it out.

> But I have changed it back! To my big surprise the Apple /// comes
> on with the system self check when the lamp is not in place!

Another ones swallows the bait, the hook, the line and the fishing pole
altogether :P

> This must be the brainchild of Apple Marketing that you have
> to call service when this little lamp is burned out.

Yes unfortunately the /// was the machine that started the evil of
marketing involved in designing computers at Apple. They locked access
to the documentation and started to do that kind of thing. Net result:
got from market leader with a business machine that was better (ever
tried to do a subdirectory on MS-DOS 1.0?) and earlier than the PC to a
2nd class player.


> Louis Schulman wrote:
> While, as you say, the IIGS monitor works, you will find that the
> colors are wrong.  The output of the /// video is digital xRGB, which
> is unique to the /// and the AppleColor video card for the //.

Indeed.

> It was pretty easy to may a resistor network which turned the
> digital video output into a more commonly available video output.
> I think the /// manual explained how to do this

There were a few transistors too. On the side, this was the only way to
get any kind of color on a /// in Europe: no NTSC composite there. I
remember having that on my TV with the Peritel/Scart connector.

Does anyone still have the ProFile demonstration files? It was basically
a color slide show that ate about 2.5 MB or half of the ProFile, which
led many people to delete it quickly.


> David Ottalini wrote:
> Actually - the manual from Apple was WRONG on the resistor network...
> On Three - in it's Draw On Three manual had the correct schematic.
> If I can find it, I'll pass it along..

You mean the schematic at page 73 of 91 of:
http://www.apple3.org/Documents/Manuals/Apple%20III%20Owner's%20Guide.PD
F
Is wrong? Weird, I remember building that thing from that.

Michel.


From wkemper at ti.com  Tue May 11 10:48:23 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:48:23 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on a Apple ///  Update!
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901191C@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <F352807E-FF92-4576-9872-390D5700B4FF@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901191C@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <309AC73A-62C9-40C6-92C9-DA1427324F17@ti.com>

Michel,

Sorry if I have bothered you or others with the disk][ experiment.
I could not find a hint on this so I started it on my own.
I do not have a DISK/// so I need a substitute.
Works well so far except the volume copy.

Do you have a fix for the volume copy problem?
Would save me time.
I would be interested too if there is a fix for a Duodisk or Unidisk.

Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 10, 2010, at 9:40 PM, Michel Py wrote:

>> Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
>> 6. volume copy of .d1 to .d2 does not work
>> What I notice is that during volume copy suddenly both drives become
>> active and I get the error message "Volume not found"
> 
> No surprise here. That pinout many of us tried it ways back when.
> 
>> So I assume in this situation I do need to check out the other
>> select lines coming from the /// during a volume copy. This will
>> take some time as I have no storage scope or digital analyzer.
> 
> You may not need one (I'd kill to have one). Given the expected changes,
> LEDs displaying the status are probably good enough to figure it out.
> 
>> But I have changed it back! To my big surprise the Apple /// comes
>> on with the system self check when the lamp is not in place!
> 
> Another ones swallows the bait, the hook, the line and the fishing pole
> altogether :P
> 
>> This must be the brainchild of Apple Marketing that you have
>> to call service when this little lamp is burned out.
> 
> Yes unfortunately the /// was the machine that started the evil of
> marketing involved in designing computers at Apple. They locked access
> to the documentation and started to do that kind of thing. Net result:
> got from market leader with a business machine that was better (ever
> tried to do a subdirectory on MS-DOS 1.0?) and earlier than the PC to a
> 2nd class player.
> 
> 
>> Louis Schulman wrote:
>> While, as you say, the IIGS monitor works, you will find that the
>> colors are wrong.  The output of the /// video is digital xRGB, which
>> is unique to the /// and the AppleColor video card for the //.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
>> It was pretty easy to may a resistor network which turned the
>> digital video output into a more commonly available video output.
>> I think the /// manual explained how to do this
> 
> There were a few transistors too. On the side, this was the only way to
> get any kind of color on a /// in Europe: no NTSC composite there. I
> remember having that on my TV with the Peritel/Scart connector.
> 
> Does anyone still have the ProFile demonstration files? It was basically
> a color slide show that ate about 2.5 MB or half of the ProFile, which
> led many people to delete it quickly.
> 
> 
>> David Ottalini wrote:
>> Actually - the manual from Apple was WRONG on the resistor network...
>> On Three - in it's Draw On Three manual had the correct schematic.
>> If I can find it, I'll pass it along..
> 
> You mean the schematic at page 73 of 91 of:
> http://www.apple3.org/Documents/Manuals/Apple%20III%20Owner's%20Guide.PD
> F
> Is wrong? Weird, I remember building that thing from that.
> 
> Michel.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Tue May 11 18:43:43 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:43:43 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on a Apple ///  Update!
In-Reply-To: <309AC73A-62C9-40C6-92C9-DA1427324F17@ti.com>
References: <F352807E-FF92-4576-9872-390D5700B4FF@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901191C@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<309AC73A-62C9-40C6-92C9-DA1427324F17@ti.com>
Message-ID: <A36FBBF4-87B7-4E33-B324-B5CB5EEEEF17@gmail.com>

It's good to know if this works or not.  Like it or not, our Disk ///'s are going to degrade over time.  There will be a larger supply of Disk ]['s about for the medium term, at least.  I do have one extra Disk /// in good condition if you want an original unit, Wolfgang.

Thanks,

Jeff


On May 11, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:

> Michel,
> 
> Sorry if I have bothered you or others with the disk][ experiment.
> I could not find a hint on this so I started it on my own.
> I do not have a DISK/// so I need a substitute.
> Works well so far except the volume copy.
> 
> Do you have a fix for the volume copy problem?
> Would save me time.
> I would be interested too if there is a fix for a Duodisk or Unidisk.
> 
> Regards,
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> On May 10, 2010, at 9:40 PM, Michel Py wrote:
> 
>>> Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
>>> 6. volume copy of .d1 to .d2 does not work
>>> What I notice is that during volume copy suddenly both drives become
>>> active and I get the error message "Volume not found"
>> 
>> No surprise here. That pinout many of us tried it ways back when.
>> 
>>> So I assume in this situation I do need to check out the other
>>> select lines coming from the /// during a volume copy. This will
>>> take some time as I have no storage scope or digital analyzer.
>> 
>> You may not need one (I'd kill to have one). Given the expected changes,
>> LEDs displaying the status are probably good enough to figure it out.
>> 
>>> But I have changed it back! To my big surprise the Apple /// comes
>>> on with the system self check when the lamp is not in place!
>> 
>> Another ones swallows the bait, the hook, the line and the fishing pole
>> altogether :P
>> 
>>> This must be the brainchild of Apple Marketing that you have
>>> to call service when this little lamp is burned out.
>> 
>> Yes unfortunately the /// was the machine that started the evil of
>> marketing involved in designing computers at Apple. They locked access
>> to the documentation and started to do that kind of thing. Net result:
>> got from market leader with a business machine that was better (ever
>> tried to do a subdirectory on MS-DOS 1.0?) and earlier than the PC to a
>> 2nd class player.
>> 
>> 
>>> Louis Schulman wrote:
>>> While, as you say, the IIGS monitor works, you will find that the
>>> colors are wrong.  The output of the /// video is digital xRGB, which
>>> is unique to the /// and the AppleColor video card for the //.
>> 
>> Indeed.
>> 
>>> It was pretty easy to may a resistor network which turned the
>>> digital video output into a more commonly available video output.
>>> I think the /// manual explained how to do this
>> 
>> There were a few transistors too. On the side, this was the only way to
>> get any kind of color on a /// in Europe: no NTSC composite there. I
>> remember having that on my TV with the Peritel/Scart connector.
>> 
>> Does anyone still have the ProFile demonstration files? It was basically
>> a color slide show that ate about 2.5 MB or half of the ProFile, which
>> led many people to delete it quickly.
>> 
>> 
>>> David Ottalini wrote:
>>> Actually - the manual from Apple was WRONG on the resistor network...
>>> On Three - in it's Draw On Three manual had the correct schematic.
>>> If I can find it, I'll pass it along..
>> 
>> You mean the schematic at page 73 of 91 of:
>> http://www.apple3.org/Documents/Manuals/Apple%20III%20Owner's%20Guide.PD
>> F
>> Is wrong? Weird, I remember building that thing from that.
>> 
>> Michel.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

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From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Wed May 12 23:50:13 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 20:50:13 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on a Apple ///  Update!
In-Reply-To: <309AC73A-62C9-40C6-92C9-DA1427324F17@ti.com>
References: <F352807E-FF92-4576-9872-390D5700B4FF@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901191C@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<309AC73A-62C9-40C6-92C9-DA1427324F17@ti.com>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901192C@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
> Sorry if I have bothered you or others with the disk][ experiment.

Absolutely not, to the contrary.

> I do not have a DISK/// so I need a substitute.

Before I forget: the photos you sent suggest that you have a micro-SCI
drive. As far as I remember, they were the only guys to make an Apple
/// compatible external drive. I have never seen one, though.

Consider borrowing a Disk/// for analysis purposes. What you are trying
to do has apparently been lost in collective memory; access to a logic
analyzer commands the loan of hardware if you share the results.

> I would be interested too if there is a fix for a Duodisk or Unidisk.

I would loan a pair of unidisks for a glass of wine :P
I ship them, you do the work, we drink.

Michel.


From david.ottalini at verizon.net  Thu May 13 00:09:41 2010
From: david.ottalini at verizon.net (David Ottalini)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 00:09:41 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] MicroSci A-143
Message-ID: <7654971C-3DDE-4297-86D7-FBF1994238C2@verizon.net>


Here you go...

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From wkemper at ti.com  Thu May 13 11:39:25 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:39:25 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on a Apple ///  Update!
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901192C@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <F352807E-FF92-4576-9872-390D5700B4FF@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901191C@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<309AC73A-62C9-40C6-92C9-DA1427324F17@ti.com>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901192C@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <A5C2F620-176C-4715-9046-10E208B05223@ti.com>

Michel,

unfortunately my wine cellar is low on good wine. When I moved a couple of years ago I took the opportunity and brought 300 bottles of French,Swiss and German wine with me.
Over the years this supply has dwindled and I could not compensate with the 1/2 gallon allowance at reentry in the US :-)
I apologize for ignoring US wine but I reject to accept a Chardonnay , a Riesling or a Mueller Thurgau or anything else if it is not grown on the soil it is intent to be. However I try since a couple of years to find the finest Texan wine. Got close but I think I need some more digging until the final verdict.
But this is a complete different topic and does not even remotely connect to the Apple /// :-)


On the bright side I have access to a unidisk drive.
I just want to fix the DIsk][ task before I move on to Unidisk and Duodisk.

The Micro-SCI needs repair, unfortunately the IC's are not socket and I could not just replace them until I found the trouble. It is not the ls125, I suspect the ln2003 is damaged. 
I was just too lazy to fix it as it works fine except that the drive LED is allways on.


The logic analyzer is waiting in the lab, I just need to bring in the /// on a weekend.
And that's the tough part, in the moment I show up I will be sucked into other action than experimenting with the /// .  "le travail est une chose, le plaisir en une autre " (If my dim memories of the French language don't fail me)







Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 12, 2010, at 10:50 PM, Michel Py wrote:

>> Kemper, Wolfgang wrote:
>> Sorry if I have bothered you or others with the disk][ experiment.
> 
> Absolutely not, to the contrary.
> 
>> I do not have a DISK/// so I need a substitute.
> 
> Before I forget: the photos you sent suggest that you have a micro-SCI
> drive. As far as I remember, they were the only guys to make an Apple
> /// compatible external drive. I have never seen one, though.
> 
> Consider borrowing a Disk/// for analysis purposes. What you are trying
> to do has apparently been lost in collective memory; access to a logic
> analyzer commands the loan of hardware if you share the results.
> 
>> I would be interested too if there is a fix for a Duodisk or Unidisk.
> 
> I would loan a pair of unidisks for a glass of wine :P
> I ship them, you do the work, we drink.
> 
> Michel.
> 


From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Thu May 13 15:08:14 2010
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 12:08:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Apple3-L] Using a Disk II on an Apple ///
Message-ID: <935361.83984.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I was pointed at this list by a a member of another board, since I have recently done this, and he mentioned you guys were discussing it...

After looking at the schematics of both the Disk /// and the Disk II, I discovered that the first 20 pins of the Disk /// are exactly the same as the  entire Disk II connector. One could probably make a Disk II connector fit into the port of an Apple /// by filing down the key tab, but I built a proper adapter to connect it. Then I was able to plug an unmodified Disk II into the adapter and use it on the ///. No logic, no components, just straight through.

So far, the drive has worked flawlessly, although I've primarily only been using it under Apple Disk Transfer. Since I received my /// broken and with no software, I've used ADT to bootstrap it and write usable disks. The Disk II formats, writes, and reads properly when connected to the ///. It even passed the test on the dealer diagnostic disk.

I believe one could connect two more Disk II's by re-routing the enable lines from pins 21 and 22 of the /// connector to pin 14 of the desired drive. I intend to extend my adapter to support more drives, but have not gotten around to it.

And no, I have no idea what the /SLOT and /AII lines (pins 26 and 23, respectively) on the /// connector do. I didn't connect them to anything.

-Ian

From wkemper at ti.com  Thu May 13 16:11:12 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 15:11:12 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Using a Disk II on an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <935361.83984.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <935361.83984.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1CFD861B-EB3E-46B0-ACE7-E685BD393D64@ti.com>

Hi Ian,
Nice to see someone else working on it.

I did the same experiment recently. 
Please to a volume copy from .d1 to .d2 and let me know if this has worked for yu.
>From my experiments this was the only thing which is not working.
So the drive enable,slot and probably the Aii have to do something with it.

My analyses of the schematic let me believe that the AII is simply to disable .d3 and .d4 in emulation mode. the other pins just are straight forward a selection matrix for two slots with two drives each.

Search the history files of this list for more details.

My next step is to figure out the exact logic behind the volume copy to understand why this is not working with the straight connector approach.
Ultimately I want to build a adapter to allow to connect three external DISK]['s to the ///




Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 13, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote:

> I was pointed at this list by a a member of another board, since I have recently done this, and he mentioned you guys were discussing it...
> 
> After looking at the schematics of both the Disk /// and the Disk II, I discovered that the first 20 pins of the Disk /// are exactly the same as the  entire Disk II connector. One could probably make a Disk II connector fit into the port of an Apple /// by filing down the key tab, but I built a proper adapter to connect it. Then I was able to plug an unmodified Disk II into the adapter and use it on the ///. No logic, no components, just straight through.
> 
> So far, the drive has worked flawlessly, although I've primarily only been using it under Apple Disk Transfer. Since I received my /// broken and with no software, I've used ADT to bootstrap it and write usable disks. The Disk II formats, writes, and reads properly when connected to the ///. It even passed the test on the dealer diagnostic disk.
> 
> I believe one could connect two more Disk II's by re-routing the enable lines from pins 21 and 22 of the /// connector to pin 14 of the desired drive. I intend to extend my adapter to support more drives, but have not gotten around to it.
> 
> And no, I have no idea what the /SLOT and /AII lines (pins 26 and 23, respectively) on the /// connector do. I didn't connect them to anything.
> 
> -Ian
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Thu May 13 23:51:53 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 20:51:53 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Using a Disk II on an Apple ///
In-Reply-To: <935361.83984.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <935361.83984.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF69011932@newserver.arneill-py.local>

> Ian Primus wrote:
> I was pointed at this list by a a member of another board

Care to share which one?

> I believe one could connect two more Disk II's by re-routing the
> enable lines from pins 21 and 22 of the /// connector to pin 14
> of the desired drive.

This is the current thinking.

As pointed out earlier, the unidisk/duodisk thing is very similar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_II

I understand that you guys' priorities are the Disk][, but before you
close this have a look at the unidisk and the duodisk. Once you get the
Disk/// decoding figured out, you are 95% to getting the unidisk/duodisk
working too.



> Kemper, Wolfgang
> Please to a volume copy from .d1 to .d2 and let me know if this has
worked for yu.

Yes, yes.

>From my experiments this was the only thing which is not working.
> So the drive enable,slot and probably the Aii have to do something
with it.
> My analyses of the schematic let me believe that the AII is simply to
> disable .d3 and .d4 in emulation mode. the other pins just are
straight
> forward a selection matrix for two slots with two drives each.

Again, only a systematic approach of all the extra lines, with a logic
analyzer or LEDs would provide the complete picture.

Michel.


From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Sun May 16 16:51:11 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 15:51:11 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk][ to Disk /// update
Message-ID: <D465A09F-E884-4A27-B02D-B93BAF830F68@die-kempers.de>

Hi all,
my time to work on the problem got a little tight this weekend so I send this update with out having lot to say.

I decided to use an old microcontroller I had laying around to use as a debugging kit. ( A Basic Stamp)

Advantage of doing so is that I can reprogram the MC in-circuit and try out all kinds of logic combinations on the lines.

I did feed pin 20-26 into the MC and split up line 14 (enable) so that I can switch it with the MC.

By sequentially doing directory listings on .d1-.d4 I can now see how the "logic" of the drive signals work.

The only trouble I have right now is that the enable(14) is using a tristate line and using the MC (because it is a Basic Stamp) is a little too slow in switching the enable line so sometimes I get read errors.

So good news is that I practically can dial in how the attache drives behaves (d2 or d3 or d4)
So with doing a selection matrix on the enable lines of three attached drives it should be possible to attach three disk][ on the Apple ///

I may switch to discrete logic or I have to find a trick to make the basic stamp MC do it's job faster.
I have to check of one of TI's ultra-cheap MSP430 MC's could be used. We sell them for peanuts , less than $1 and that's cheaper than a bunch of gates and resistors.


Wolfgang












From shirlgato at cybermesa.com  Sun May 16 23:36:56 2010
From: shirlgato at cybermesa.com (Shirl Casner)
Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 21:36:56 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk][ to Disk /// update
In-Reply-To: <D465A09F-E884-4A27-B02D-B93BAF830F68@die-kempers.de>
References: <D465A09F-E884-4A27-B02D-B93BAF830F68@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <384C61C6-C60C-4E42-B6A7-668EF744A1FF@cybermesa.com>


Hello Wolfgang, Michel:

In case you have not seen Apple's Apple /// level 2 service manual which has a section on the Disk /// theory of operation, I will send you a PDF of this section.

The full service manual, which is around 700 pages long, can be found at the asimove FTP site under the name "Apple 3 - Service Reference Manual 1982.pdf".

- David Craig


On May 16, 2010, at 2:51 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:

> Hi all,
> my time to work on the problem got a little tight this weekend so I send this update with out having lot to say.
> 
> I decided to use an old microcontroller I had laying around to use as a debugging kit. ( A Basic Stamp)
> 
> Advantage of doing so is that I can reprogram the MC in-circuit and try out all kinds of logic combinations on the lines.
> 
> I did feed pin 20-26 into the MC and split up line 14 (enable) so that I can switch it with the MC.
> 
> By sequentially doing directory listings on .d1-.d4 I can now see how the "logic" of the drive signals work.
> 
> The only trouble I have right now is that the enable(14) is using a tristate line and using the MC (because it is a Basic Stamp) is a little too slow in switching the enable line so sometimes I get read errors.
> 
> So good news is that I practically can dial in how the attache drives behaves (d2 or d3 or d4)
> So with doing a selection matrix on the enable lines of three attached drives it should be possible to attach three disk][ on the Apple ///
> 
> I may switch to discrete logic or I have to find a trick to make the basic stamp MC do it's job faster.
> I have to check of one of TI's ultra-cheap MSP430 MC's could be used. We sell them for peanuts , less than $1 and that's cheaper than a bunch of gates and resistors.
> 
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> 


From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Mon May 17 11:13:04 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:13:04 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk][ to Disk /// update
In-Reply-To: <384C61C6-C60C-4E42-B6A7-668EF744A1FF@cybermesa.com>
References: <D465A09F-E884-4A27-B02D-B93BAF830F68@die-kempers.de>
	<384C61C6-C60C-4E42-B6A7-668EF744A1FF@cybermesa.com>
Message-ID: <672DC502-8D82-43EC-A7A7-E70D4523E8E9@gmail.com>

David,

I could not find the file there, apologies.  I found some other Apple /// materials that I already had stored in archives but not that one.  I have a printed version that is starting to suffer toner detachment from my original Apple binder.  Sheesh, it's been a long time since I took those tests to get certified :-)

If you could share the path for the whole thing I would be grateful.

Thanks,

Jeff

On May 16, 2010, at 11:36 PM, Shirl Casner wrote:

> 
> Hello Wolfgang, Michel:
> 
> In case you have not seen Apple's Apple /// level 2 service manual which has a section on the Disk /// theory of operation, I will send you a PDF of this section.
> 
> The full service manual, which is around 700 pages long, can be found at the asimove FTP site under the name "Apple 3 - Service Reference Manual 1982.pdf".
> 
> - David Craig
> 
> 
> On May 16, 2010, at 2:51 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> my time to work on the problem got a little tight this weekend so I send this update with out having lot to say.
>> 
>> I decided to use an old microcontroller I had laying around to use as a debugging kit. ( A Basic Stamp)
>> 
>> Advantage of doing so is that I can reprogram the MC in-circuit and try out all kinds of logic combinations on the lines.
>> 
>> I did feed pin 20-26 into the MC and split up line 14 (enable) so that I can switch it with the MC.
>> 
>> By sequentially doing directory listings on .d1-.d4 I can now see how the "logic" of the drive signals work.
>> 
>> The only trouble I have right now is that the enable(14) is using a tristate line and using the MC (because it is a Basic Stamp) is a little too slow in switching the enable line so sometimes I get read errors.
>> 
>> So good news is that I practically can dial in how the attache drives behaves (d2 or d3 or d4)
>> So with doing a selection matrix on the enable lines of three attached drives it should be possible to attach three disk][ on the Apple ///
>> 
>> I may switch to discrete logic or I have to find a trick to make the basic stamp MC do it's job faster.
>> I have to check of one of TI's ultra-cheap MSP430 MC's could be used. We sell them for peanuts , less than $1 and that's cheaper than a bunch of gates and resistors.
>> 
>> 
>> Wolfgang
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

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From shirlgato at cybermesa.com  Mon May 17 15:13:04 2010
From: shirlgato at cybermesa.com (Shirl Casner)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:13:04 -0600
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// info on FTP.ASIMOV.NET
In-Reply-To: <672DC502-8D82-43EC-A7A7-E70D4523E8E9@gmail.com>
References: <D465A09F-E884-4A27-B02D-B93BAF830F68@die-kempers.de>
	<384C61C6-C60C-4E42-B6A7-668EF744A1FF@cybermesa.com>
	<672DC502-8D82-43EC-A7A7-E70D4523E8E9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8B572A16-CD30-455E-849F-C0E70133F1BF@cybermesa.com>


There are many Apple /// files on the ASIMOV FTP site. I uploaded a bunch around the beginning of the year.

   ftp.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/apple3/
   ftp.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/

The Apple /// service manual does not appear to be here though I recall copying it. Have recopied to the following location, but believe read access is denied to this location until the administrator of this site moves these files to their final destination.

   ftp.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/incoming

- David Craig


On May 17, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> David,
> 
> I could not find the file there, apologies.  I found some other Apple /// materials that I already had stored in archives but not that one.  I have a printed version that is starting to suffer toner detachment from my original Apple binder.  Sheesh, it's been a long time since I took those tests to get certified :-)
> 
> If you could share the path for the whole thing I would be grateful.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On May 16, 2010, at 11:36 PM, Shirl Casner wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hello Wolfgang, Michel:
>> 
>> In case you have not seen Apple's Apple /// level 2 service manual which has a section on the Disk /// theory of operation, I will send you a PDF of this section.
>> 
>> The full service manual, which is around 700 pages long, can be found at the asimove FTP site under the name "Apple 3 - Service Reference Manual 1982.pdf".
>> 
>> - David Craig



From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Mon May 17 22:51:32 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:51:32 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Apple /// info on FTP.ASIMOV.NET
In-Reply-To: <8B572A16-CD30-455E-849F-C0E70133F1BF@cybermesa.com>
References: <D465A09F-E884-4A27-B02D-B93BAF830F68@die-kempers.de>
	<384C61C6-C60C-4E42-B6A7-668EF744A1FF@cybermesa.com>
	<672DC502-8D82-43EC-A7A7-E70D4523E8E9@gmail.com>
	<8B572A16-CD30-455E-849F-C0E70133F1BF@cybermesa.com>
Message-ID: <042AE6A4-8BB7-40D5-854D-A18AE96D386C@gmail.com>

Thanks David, looks like he approved it among many other new documents :)  Much appreciated!

Jeff

On May 17, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Shirl Casner wrote:

> 
> There are many Apple /// files on the ASIMOV FTP site. I uploaded a bunch around the beginning of the year.
> 
>   ftp.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/apple3/
>   ftp.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/
> 
> The Apple /// service manual does not appear to be here though I recall copying it. Have recopied to the following location, but believe read access is denied to this location until the administrator of this site moves these files to their final destination.
> 
>   ftp.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/incoming
> 
> - David Craig
> 
> 
> On May 17, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
> 
>> David,
>> 
>> I could not find the file there, apologies.  I found some other Apple /// materials that I already had stored in archives but not that one.  I have a printed version that is starting to suffer toner detachment from my original Apple binder.  Sheesh, it's been a long time since I took those tests to get certified :-)
>> 
>> If you could share the path for the whole thing I would be grateful.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> On May 16, 2010, at 11:36 PM, Shirl Casner wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello Wolfgang, Michel:
>>> 
>>> In case you have not seen Apple's Apple /// level 2 service manual which has a section on the Disk /// theory of operation, I will send you a PDF of this section.
>>> 
>>> The full service manual, which is around 700 pages long, can be found at the asimove FTP site under the name "Apple 3 - Service Reference Manual 1982.pdf".
>>> 
>>> - David Craig
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

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From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Tue May 18 22:51:20 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 21:51:20 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk][ to Disk /// update
In-Reply-To: <D465A09F-E884-4A27-B02D-B93BAF830F68@die-kempers.de>
References: <D465A09F-E884-4A27-B02D-B93BAF830F68@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <9AD6A796-9D71-4287-84C3-30AC8A7B91C3@die-kempers.de>

All right my little basic stamp is now in full control. Figured out what delayed my signal.

I can address my DISK][ as .d2,.d3 and .d4. for read and write.

Means I can also connect three disk ][ and address them. 

The above functionality would be nothing more than a straight forward adapter of the disk///  to three disk][ where you just connect the following matrix:

.d1   disk /// pin 14 --> 1st   disk][ pin 14
.d2   disk/// pin  22 --> 2nd  disk][ pin 14
.d3  disk/// pin   21 --> 3rd  disk][ pin 14

This can be done on a radio shack PCB board and a 26pin and 3x 20pin connectors.

Big advantage is that you do not have to modify any drive, you just plug the DISK][ in the adapter board and the board into the back of the ///.
And it is dirt cheap. I have not looked it up but I guess the whole thing is less than $5 . I will build one as soon I have the time just to have a reference.

Consider this the poor man connector with limited functionality.
Because all normal read write access and even copy from a profile or CFFA card to those drives work fine but not disk to disk copy.

I need to study the service reference manual.
Looks like I do miss a logic signal for the disk copy. Both drive start to write,corrupting both disks.

I have now access to a Disk /// and daisy chaining my adapted Disk][ does not work .
My Disk ][ acts then as .d1. Another hint that I am missing a signal. 

I suspect pin 26 wich I have ignored so far.

The whole thing is big fun, I just wish I could burn more time on it.
So bear with me, the final solution is close (I hope :-)  )

Wolfgang


On May 16, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Wolfgang Kemper wrote:

> Hi all,
> my time to work on the problem got a little tight this weekend so I send this update with out having lot to say.
> 
> I decided to use an old microcontroller I had laying around to use as a debugging kit. ( A Basic Stamp)
> 
> Advantage of doing so is that I can reprogram the MC in-circuit and try out all kinds of logic combinations on the lines.
> 
> I did feed pin 20-26 into the MC and split up line 14 (enable) so that I can switch it with the MC.
> 
> By sequentially doing directory listings on .d1-.d4 I can now see how the "logic" of the drive signals work.
> 
> The only trouble I have right now is that the enable(14) is using a tristate line and using the MC (because it is a Basic Stamp) is a little too slow in switching the enable line so sometimes I get read errors.
> 
> So good news is that I practically can dial in how the attache drives behaves (d2 or d3 or d4)
> So with doing a selection matrix on the enable lines of three attached drives it should be possible to attach three disk][ on the Apple ///
> 
> I may switch to discrete logic or I have to find a trick to make the basic stamp MC do it's job faster.
> I have to check of one of TI's ultra-cheap MSP430 MC's could be used. We sell them for peanuts , less than $1 and that's cheaper than a bunch of gates and resistors.
> 
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Tue May 25 23:41:53 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 22:41:53 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
Message-ID: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>

All,
my Disk ][ is now working fine as a DISK/// replacement .

Copy,Format,list ,io and disk to disk copy do work fine.

I had a flaw in my Basic Stamp program which was causing the disk copy to work not correctly.
The pin 26 (SLOT) is needed to make sure that not the internal .d1 is selected.
If SLOT is High , all other select pins are don't care except pin 14 (EnableB)
A][ (Pin 23) can be ignored, under DOS3.3 only two drives are accessible, regardless of the A][ signal.


So now that the Disk ][ works flawlessly I will take on the task to get a DuoDisk to work.

I have not checked any details but I would expect this should be doable.


Here is my "Logic" for connecting the Disk ][:

Pin 1-13, 15-20 --> straight connection between the Apple /// and the disk ][

connect pin 14, 21-26 to the following logic (pin 25+24 are NC)

Have pin 14 of the disk][ connected to the logic as EnableB (1,2,3 for three external drives)
Use the three PIN 14 lines to attache three external DISK][ as .d2,.d3,.d4

EnableB =1

: for .d2 logic
If (pin 26 =0) then								
 if ((pin 14 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
  Do
   enableB1 = 0
  loop until ((pin 14 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))


: for .d3 logic
If (pin 26 =0) then								
 if ((pin 22 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
  Do
   enableB2 = 0
  loop until ((pin 22 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))


: for .d4 logic
If (pin 26 =0) then								
 if ((pin 21 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
  Do
   enableB3 = 0
  loop until ((pin 21 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))
	

Of course you can do this with some TTL logic as well.
Use 74LS or 74HCT logic gates


Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too scrambled)


Pin Disk ///
Pin DisK][
Disk/// J1
Disk/// J2
Disk][


1
1
Gnd

Gnd


2
2
?0

?0


3
3
Gnd

Gnd


4
4
?1

?1


5
5
Gnd

Gnd


6
6
?2

?2


7
7
Gnd

Gnd


8
8
?3

?3


9
9
-12V

-12V


10
10
Not_Wreq

Not_Wreq


11
11
+5V

+5V


12
12
+5V

+5V


13
13
+12V

+12V


14
14
Enable_A

Not_Enable

.d2 
15
15
+12V

+12V


16
16
Not_Rd_Data

Not_Rd_Data


17
17
+12V

+12V


18
18
Not_write_data

Not_write_data


19
19
+12V

+12V


20
20
Wprot

Wprot


21

NC
ENable_B


.d4
22

Enable_B
Enable_A


.d3
23

Not_A_][
Not_A_][



24






25






26

Slot
Slot


internal drive



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From jeff.marraccini at gmail.com  Tue May 25 23:49:35 2010
From: jeff.marraccini at gmail.com (Jeff Marraccini)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:49:35 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
References: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik9eoaSOU0C2O8IlWCgeIkqAgg2t7s_mxUh6Qid@mail.gmail.com>

The table came through great.  Thanks Wolfgang!  Great job!

Jeff

On May 25, 2010 11:42 PM, "Wolfgang Kemper" <wolfgang at die-kempers.de> wrote:

All,
my Disk ][ is now working fine as a DISK/// replacement .

Copy,Format,list ,io and disk to disk copy do work fine.

I had a flaw in my Basic Stamp program which was causing the disk copy to
work not correctly.
The pin 26 (SLOT) is needed to make sure that not the internal .d1 is
selected.
If SLOT is High , all other select pins are don't care except pin 14
(EnableB)
A][ (Pin 23) can be ignored, under DOS3.3 only two drives are accessible,
regardless of the A][ signal.


So now that the Disk ][ works flawlessly I will take on the task to get a
DuoDisk to work.

I have not checked any details but I would expect this should be doable.


Here is my "Logic" for connecting the Disk ][:

Pin 1-13, 15-20 --> straight connection between the Apple /// and the disk
][

connect pin 14, 21-26 to the following logic (pin 25+24 are NC)

Have pin 14 of the disk][ connected to the logic as EnableB (1,2,3 for three
external drives)
Use the three PIN 14 lines to attache three external DISK][ as .d2,.d3,.d4

EnableB =1

: for .d2 logic
If (pin 26 =0) then
 if ((pin 14 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
  Do
   enableB1 = 0
  loop until ((pin 14 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))


: for .d3 logic
If (pin 26 =0) then
 if ((pin 22 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
  Do
   enableB2 = 0
  loop until ((pin 22 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))


: for .d4 logic
If (pin 26 =0) then
 if ((pin 21 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
  Do
   enableB3 = 0
  loop until ((pin 21 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))

Of course you can do this with some TTL logic as well.
Use 74LS or 74HCT logic gates


Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too
scrambled)


  *Pin Disk ///*
 *Pin DisK][*
 *Disk/// J1*
 *Disk/// J2*
 *Disk][*


  1
 1
 Gnd

 Gnd


  2
 2
 ?0

 ?0


  3
 3
 Gnd

 Gnd


  4
 4
 ?1

 ?1


  5
 5
 Gnd

 Gnd


  6
 6
 ?2

 ?2


  7
 7
 Gnd

 Gnd


  8
 8
 ?3

 ?3


  9
 9
 -12V

 -12V


  10
 10
 Not_Wreq

 Not_Wreq


  11
 11
 +5V

 +5V


  12
 12
 +5V

 +5V


  13
 13
 +12V

 +12V


  14
 14
 Enable_A

 Not_Enable

 .d2
  15
 15
 +12V

 +12V


  16
 16
 Not_Rd_Data

 Not_Rd_Data


  17
 17
 +12V

 +12V


  18
 18
 Not_write_data

 Not_write_data


  19
 19
 +12V

 +12V


  20
 20
 Wprot

 Wprot


  21

 NC
 ENable_B


 .d4
  22

 Enable_B
 Enable_A


 .d3
  23

 Not_A_][
 Not_A_][



  24






  25






  26

 Slot
 Slot


 internal drive




_______________________________________________
Apple3-L mailing list
Apple3-L at news.altair.com
https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
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From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Wed May 26 07:24:35 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 06:24:35 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik9eoaSOU0C2O8IlWCgeIkqAgg2t7s_mxUh6Qid@mail.gmail.com>
References: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
	<AANLkTik9eoaSOU0C2O8IlWCgeIkqAgg2t7s_mxUh6Qid@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37E01622-DEAB-4099-8546-1FA98BB0B737@die-kempers.de>

Jeff,
Hope I find the time over the holiday weekend to produce a nice documentation and put it somewhere on the Web.
I will also order all necessary parts from Digikey to build a handy adapter.
I want to have something I plug into the back of the /// and can then just connect Disk]['s without any modification.

Have to check if my setup will also work as .d3 or .d4 when a Disk/// is connected externally as .d2

Wolfgang

On May 25, 2010, at 10:49 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:

> The table came through great.  Thanks Wolfgang!  Great job!
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
>> On May 25, 2010 11:42 PM, "Wolfgang Kemper" <wolfgang at die-kempers.de> wrote:
>> 
>> All,
>> my Disk ][ is now working fine as a DISK/// replacement .
>> 
>> Copy,Format,list ,io and disk to disk copy do work fine.
>> 
>> I had a flaw in my Basic Stamp program which was causing the disk copy to work not correctly.
>> The pin 26 (SLOT) is needed to make sure that not the internal .d1 is selected.
>> If SLOT is High , all other select pins are don't care except pin 14 (EnableB)
>> A][ (Pin 23) can be ignored, under DOS3.3 only two drives are accessible, regardless of the A][ signal.
>> 
>> 
>> So now that the Disk ][ works flawlessly I will take on the task to get a DuoDisk to work.
>> 
>> I have not checked any details but I would expect this should be doable.
>> 
>> 
>> Here is my "Logic" for connecting the Disk ][:
>> 
>> Pin 1-13, 15-20 --> straight connection between the Apple /// and the disk ][
>> 
>> connect pin 14, 21-26 to the following logic (pin 25+24 are NC)
>> 
>> Have pin 14 of the disk][ connected to the logic as EnableB (1,2,3 for three external drives)
>> Use the three PIN 14 lines to attache three external DISK][ as .d2,.d3,.d4
>> 
>> EnableB =1
>> 
>> : for .d2 logic
>> If (pin 26 =0) then								
>>  if ((pin 14 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
>>   Do
>>    enableB1 = 0
>>   loop until ((pin 14 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))
>> 
>> 
>> : for .d3 logic
>> If (pin 26 =0) then								
>>  if ((pin 22 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
>>   Do
>>    enableB2 = 0
>>   loop until ((pin 22 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))
>> 
>> 
>> : for .d4 logic
>> If (pin 26 =0) then								
>>  if ((pin 21 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
>>   Do
>>    enableB3 = 0
>>   loop until ((pin 21 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))
>> 	
>> 
>> Of course you can do this with some TTL logic as well.
>> Use 74LS or 74HCT logic gates
>> 
>> 
>> Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too scrambled)
>> 
>> 
>> Pin Disk ///
>> Pin DisK][
>> Disk/// J1
>> Disk/// J2
>> Disk][
>> 
>> 
>> 1
>> 1
>> Gnd
>> 
>> Gnd
>> 
>> 
>> 2
>> 2
>> ?0
>> 
>> ?0
>> 
>> 
>> 3
>> 3
>> Gnd
>> 
>> Gnd
>> 
>> 
>> 4
>> 4
>> ?1
>> 
>> ?1
>> 
>> 
>> 5
>> 5
>> Gnd
>> 
>> Gnd
>> 
>> 
>> 6
>> 6
>> ?2
>> 
>> ?2
>> 
>> 
>> 7
>> 7
>> Gnd
>> 
>> Gnd
>> 
>> 
>> 8
>> 8
>> ?3
>> 
>> ?3
>> 
>> 
>> 9
>> 9
>> -12V
>> 
>> -12V
>> 
>> 
>> 10
>> 10
>> Not_Wreq
>> 
>> Not_Wreq
>> 
>> 
>> 11
>> 11
>> +5V
>> 
>> +5V
>> 
>> 
>> 12
>> 12
>> +5V
>> 
>> +5V
>> 
>> 
>> 13
>> 13
>> +12V
>> 
>> +12V
>> 
>> 
>> 14
>> 14
>> Enable_A
>> 
>> Not_Enable
>> 
>> .d2 
>> 15
>> 15
>> +12V
>> 
>> +12V
>> 
>> 
>> 16
>> 16
>> Not_Rd_Data
>> 
>> Not_Rd_Data
>> 
>> 
>> 17
>> 17
>> +12V
>> 
>> +12V
>> 
>> 
>> 18
>> 18
>> Not_write_data
>> 
>> Not_write_data
>> 
>> 
>> 19
>> 19
>> +12V
>> 
>> +12V
>> 
>> 
>> 20
>> 20
>> Wprot
>> 
>> Wprot
>> 
>> 
>> 21
>> 
>> NC
>> ENable_B
>> 
>> 
>> .d4
>> 22
>> 
>> Enable_B
>> Enable_A
>> 
>> 
>> .d3
>> 23
>> 
>> Not_A_][
>> Not_A_][
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 24
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 25
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 26
>> 
>> Slot
>> Slot
>> 
>> 
>> internal drive
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

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From david at attglobal.net  Wed May 26 13:34:18 2010
From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 13:34:18 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1274889603.938.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
References: <mailman.1.1274889603.938.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
Message-ID: <4BFD5B9A.4090700@attglobal.net>

apple3-l-request at news.altair.com wrote:
> Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too scrambled)

Woflgang - thank you for decoding everything.  The format is pretty 
scrambled in the list view:
http://news.altair.com/pipermail/apple3-l/2010-May/000242.html
I wonder if you can send me whatever real format you have (.xls, .doc, 
whatever it is) over email to info at apple3.org so I can post it there?

- David Schmidt

From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Wed May 26 14:01:11 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 11:01:11 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
References: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901195D@newserver.arneill-py.local>

Wolfgang,

Good work!
So if I read this correctly, the logic to connect a disk][ as .d2 would be:

 Disk][       External /// connector
---------     ----------------------
    ____                ____    ____
14 (ENBL)  =  14 OR 26 (ENBL OR SLOT)

This is a single OR gate; 1/4 of a 74LS32. It would be interesting to build a simple adapter with the only active component being a 74LS32, VCC and GND are available on the cable.


> Have to check if my setup will also work as .d3 or .d4 when
> a Disk/// is connected externally as .d2

This is where you need to understand the daisy-chain part; each drive is the same and thinks it's .d2; there is a pin shift, down the daisy-chain ENBLB becomes ENBLA which becomes ENBL.

So in all logic, the same adapter described above should make a disk][ act as .d3 when connected to the back of a .d2 external Disk///

I believe the following describes the Disk/// daisy chain correctly, but do check.

     J2 (IN)                  J3 (OUT)
----------------          ----------------
____     ____                ____     ____
SLOT  or ENd1 26 --->---- 26 SLOT  or ENd1 (no pin shift)
____     ____
ENBL  or ENd2 14 --->---- NC               (d2 becomes nothing)
_____    ____                ____     ____
ENBLA or ENd3 22 --->---- 14 ENBL  or ENd2 (d3 becomes d2)
_____    ____                _____    ___
ENBLB or ENd4 21 --->---- 22 ENBLA or ENd3 (d4 becomes d3)


Unidisk/Duodisk adapter:

I is possible that, on top of the logic described earlier, if you route ENBLA from the Disk/// to pin9 of the Unidisk/Duodisk connector, it will work just the same. The Unidisk-daisy chain is as follows:

Unidisk IN           Unidisk OUT
----------           -----------
ENd1 17    --->----  NC
ENd2 9     --->----  17 ENd1

Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_II for the Unidisk pinout.


From louiss at gate.net  Wed May 26 17:18:16 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:18:16 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901195D@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901195D@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <4BFD9018.6060404@gate.net>

Wolfgang,

Indeed excellent work.  I would really love to use my virtually useless 
duodisk with the Apple ///.

Since I am a complete know-nothing when it comes to digital logic, but 
being pretty capable with a solder iron, I am really hoping that an 
adapter for the duodisk using standard IC's can be described so that I 
can put one together.

Many thanks!

Louis

On 5/26/2010 2:01 PM, Michel Py wrote:
> Wolfgang,
>
> Good work!
> So if I read this correctly, the logic to connect a disk][ as .d2 would be:
>
>   Disk][       External /// connector
> ---------     ----------------------
>      ____                ____    ____
> 14 (ENBL)  =  14 OR 26 (ENBL OR SLOT)
>
> This is a single OR gate; 1/4 of a 74LS32. It would be interesting to build a simple adapter with the only active component being a 74LS32, VCC and GND are available on the cable.
>
>
>    
>> Have to check if my setup will also work as .d3 or .d4 when
>> a Disk/// is connected externally as .d2
>>      
> This is where you need to understand the daisy-chain part; each drive is the same and thinks it's .d2; there is a pin shift, down the daisy-chain ENBLB becomes ENBLA which becomes ENBL.
>
> So in all logic, the same adapter described above should make a disk][ act as .d3 when connected to the back of a .d2 external Disk///
>
> I believe the following describes the Disk/// daisy chain correctly, but do check.
>
>       J2 (IN)                  J3 (OUT)
> ----------------          ----------------
> ____     ____                ____     ____
> SLOT  or ENd1 26 --->---- 26 SLOT  or ENd1 (no pin shift)
> ____     ____
> ENBL  or ENd2 14 --->---- NC               (d2 becomes nothing)
> _____    ____                ____     ____
> ENBLA or ENd3 22 --->---- 14 ENBL  or ENd2 (d3 becomes d2)
> _____    ____                _____    ___
> ENBLB or ENd4 21 --->---- 22 ENBLA or ENd3 (d4 becomes d3)
>
>
> Unidisk/Duodisk adapter:
>
> I is possible that, on top of the logic described earlier, if you route ENBLA from the Disk/// to pin9 of the Unidisk/Duodisk connector, it will work just the same. The Unidisk-daisy chain is as follows:
>
> Unidisk IN           Unidisk OUT
> ----------           -----------
> ENd1 17    --->----  NC
> ENd2 9     --->----  17 ENd1
>
> Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_II for the Unidisk pinout.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>
>    

From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Wed May 26 21:21:31 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:21:31 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <37E01622-DEAB-4099-8546-1FA98BB0B737@die-kempers.de>
References: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
	<AANLkTik9eoaSOU0C2O8IlWCgeIkqAgg2t7s_mxUh6Qid@mail.gmail.com>
	<37E01622-DEAB-4099-8546-1FA98BB0B737@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <53FA42CA-55CE-4972-A1F7-3647668D716B@die-kempers.de>

Just tested my adapter as .d3 and .d4 with a disk /// as .d2 and it works also .
Volume copy of .d2(///) to .d3 (][) was no problem.


On May 26, 2010, at 6:24 AM, Postmaster wrote:

> Jeff,
> Hope I find the time over the holiday weekend to produce a nice documentation and put it somewhere on the Web.
> I will also order all necessary parts from Digikey to build a handy adapter.
> I want to have something I plug into the back of the /// and can then just connect Disk]['s without any modification.
> 
> Have to check if my setup will also work as .d3 or .d4 when a Disk/// is connected externally as .d2
> 
> Wolfgang
> 
> On May 25, 2010, at 10:49 PM, Jeff Marraccini wrote:
> 
>> The table came through great.  Thanks Wolfgang!  Great job!
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 25, 2010 11:42 PM, "Wolfgang Kemper" <wolfgang at die-kempers.de> wrote:
>>> 
>>> All,
>>> my Disk ][ is now working fine as a DISK/// replacement .
>>> 
>>> Copy,Format,list ,io and disk to disk copy do work fine.
>>> 
>>> I had a flaw in my Basic Stamp program which was causing the disk copy to work not correctly.
>>> The pin 26 (SLOT) is needed to make sure that not the internal .d1 is selected.
>>> If SLOT is High , all other select pins are don't care except pin 14 (EnableB)
>>> A][ (Pin 23) can be ignored, under DOS3.3 only two drives are accessible, regardless of the A][ signal.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So now that the Disk ][ works flawlessly I will take on the task to get a DuoDisk to work.
>>> 
>>> I have not checked any details but I would expect this should be doable.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Here is my "Logic" for connecting the Disk ][:
>>> 
>>> Pin 1-13, 15-20 --> straight connection between the Apple /// and the disk ][
>>> 
>>> connect pin 14, 21-26 to the following logic (pin 25+24 are NC)
>>> 
>>> Have pin 14 of the disk][ connected to the logic as EnableB (1,2,3 for three external drives)
>>> Use the three PIN 14 lines to attache three external DISK][ as .d2,.d3,.d4
>>> 
>>> EnableB =1
>>> 
>>> : for .d2 logic
>>> If (pin 26 =0) then								
>>>  if ((pin 14 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
>>>   Do
>>>    enableB1 = 0
>>>   loop until ((pin 14 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))
>>> 
>>> 
>>> : for .d3 logic
>>> If (pin 26 =0) then								
>>>  if ((pin 22 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
>>>   Do
>>>    enableB2 = 0
>>>   loop until ((pin 22 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))
>>> 
>>> 
>>> : for .d4 logic
>>> If (pin 26 =0) then								
>>>  if ((pin 21 =0) and (pin 26 =0)) then
>>>   Do
>>>    enableB3 = 0
>>>   loop until ((pin 21 =1 )or (pin 26 =1))
>>> 	
>>> 
>>> Of course you can do this with some TTL logic as well.
>>> Use 74LS or 74HCT logic gates
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too scrambled)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Pin Disk ///
>>> Pin DisK][
>>> Disk/// J1
>>> Disk/// J2
>>> Disk][
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 1
>>> 1
>>> Gnd
>>> 
>>> Gnd
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2
>>> 2
>>> ?0
>>> 
>>> ?0
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 3
>>> 3
>>> Gnd
>>> 
>>> Gnd
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 4
>>> 4
>>> ?1
>>> 
>>> ?1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 5
>>> 5
>>> Gnd
>>> 
>>> Gnd
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 6
>>> 6
>>> ?2
>>> 
>>> ?2
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 7
>>> 7
>>> Gnd
>>> 
>>> Gnd
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 8
>>> 8
>>> ?3
>>> 
>>> ?3
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 9
>>> 9
>>> -12V
>>> 
>>> -12V
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 10
>>> 10
>>> Not_Wreq
>>> 
>>> Not_Wreq
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 11
>>> 11
>>> +5V
>>> 
>>> +5V
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 12
>>> 12
>>> +5V
>>> 
>>> +5V
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 13
>>> 13
>>> +12V
>>> 
>>> +12V
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 14
>>> 14
>>> Enable_A
>>> 
>>> Not_Enable
>>> 
>>> .d2 
>>> 15
>>> 15
>>> +12V
>>> 
>>> +12V
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 16
>>> 16
>>> Not_Rd_Data
>>> 
>>> Not_Rd_Data
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 17
>>> 17
>>> +12V
>>> 
>>> +12V
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 18
>>> 18
>>> Not_write_data
>>> 
>>> Not_write_data
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 19
>>> 19
>>> +12V
>>> 
>>> +12V
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 20
>>> 20
>>> Wprot
>>> 
>>> Wprot
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 21
>>> 
>>> NC
>>> ENable_B
>>> 
>>> 
>>> .d4
>>> 22
>>> 
>>> Enable_B
>>> Enable_A
>>> 
>>> 
>>> .d3
>>> 23
>>> 
>>> Not_A_][
>>> Not_A_][
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 24
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 25
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 26
>>> 
>>> Slot
>>> Slot
>>> 
>>> 
>>> internal drive
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Apple3-L mailing list
>>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l

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From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Wed May 26 21:23:15 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:23:15 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <4BFD5B9A.4090700@attglobal.net>
References: <mailman.1.1274889603.938.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BFD5B9A.4090700@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <BF251DBE-173D-4449-A558-2DFB0E83401C@die-kempers.de>

David,
let me take the time and write a nice little How-to.

I would be very happy  to have it on Apple3.org


On May 26, 2010, at 12:34 PM, David Schmidt wrote:

> apple3-l-request at news.altair.com wrote:
>> Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too scrambled)
> 
> Woflgang - thank you for decoding everything.  The format is pretty 
> scrambled in the list view:
> http://news.altair.com/pipermail/apple3-l/2010-May/000242.html
> I wonder if you can send me whatever real format you have (.xls, .doc, 
> whatever it is) over email to info at apple3.org so I can post it there?
> 
> - David Schmidt
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


From michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us  Wed May 26 23:51:32 2010
From: michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us (Michel Py)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:51:32 -0700
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <4BFD9018.6060404@gate.net>
References: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901195D@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BFD9018.6060404@gate.net>
Message-ID: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901195F@newserver.arneill-py.local>

If all tests following Wolfgang's work with discrete logic, I believe
that a single-sided PCB with a few jumpers and straps and a single
74LS32 would accommodate any /// or ///+ to anything.
When looking at it closely, all the pinouts are very similar. The pins
are not counted the same way with even-numbered connectors (such as the
26-pin Disk///) and odd-numbered such as the DB-25. However, it still
turns out that when crimping cable, it all is the same thing.


01 03 05 07 09 11 13 15 17 19 21 23 25
02 04 06 08 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26

01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13
  14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Crimp this straight through and 99% of the pins are right.


I would like someone to prototype the following:

Apple ///          Unidisk/Duodisk
14 OR 26   -->--   17
22 OR 26   -->--   9

OR function provided by 74LS32

All other matching signals straight through, naturally.
I hope this would make a DuoDisk .d2 and .d3 if attached directly to the
Apple ///, and .d3 and .d4 if attached to the back of a .d2 Disk///.






-----Original Message-----
From: Louis Schulman [mailto:louiss at gate.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:18 PM
To: Michel Py
Cc: Wolfgang Kemper; Apple///
Subject: Re: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!

Wolfgang,

Indeed excellent work.  I would really love to use my virtually useless 
duodisk with the Apple ///.

Since I am a complete know-nothing when it comes to digital logic, but 
being pretty capable with a solder iron, I am really hoping that an 
adapter for the duodisk using standard IC's can be described so that I 
can put one together.

Many thanks!

Louis

On 5/26/2010 2:01 PM, Michel Py wrote:
> Wolfgang,
>
> Good work!
> So if I read this correctly, the logic to connect a disk][ as .d2
would be:
>
>   Disk][       External /// connector
> ---------     ----------------------
>      ____                ____    ____
> 14 (ENBL)  =  14 OR 26 (ENBL OR SLOT)
>
> This is a single OR gate; 1/4 of a 74LS32. It would be interesting to
build a simple adapter with the only active component being a 74LS32,
VCC and GND are available on the cable.
>
>
>    
>> Have to check if my setup will also work as .d3 or .d4 when
>> a Disk/// is connected externally as .d2
>>      
> This is where you need to understand the daisy-chain part; each drive
is the same and thinks it's .d2; there is a pin shift, down the
daisy-chain ENBLB becomes ENBLA which becomes ENBL.
>
> So in all logic, the same adapter described above should make a disk][
act as .d3 when connected to the back of a .d2 external Disk///
>
> I believe the following describes the Disk/// daisy chain correctly,
but do check.
>
>       J2 (IN)                  J3 (OUT)
> ----------------          ----------------
> ____     ____                ____     ____
> SLOT  or ENd1 26 --->---- 26 SLOT  or ENd1 (no pin shift)
> ____     ____
> ENBL  or ENd2 14 --->---- NC               (d2 becomes nothing)
> _____    ____                ____     ____
> ENBLA or ENd3 22 --->---- 14 ENBL  or ENd2 (d3 becomes d2)
> _____    ____                _____    ___
> ENBLB or ENd4 21 --->---- 22 ENBLA or ENd3 (d4 becomes d3)
>
>
> Unidisk/Duodisk adapter:
>
> I is possible that, on top of the logic described earlier, if you
route ENBLA from the Disk/// to pin9 of the Unidisk/Duodisk connector,
it will work just the same. The Unidisk-daisy chain is as follows:
>
> Unidisk IN           Unidisk OUT
> ----------           -----------
> ENd1 17    --->----  NC
> ENd2 9     --->----  17 ENd1
>
> Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_II for the Unidisk pinout.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
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From wolfgang at die-kempers.de  Thu May 27 07:26:32 2010
From: wolfgang at die-kempers.de (Wolfgang Kemper)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 06:26:32 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901195F@newserver.arneill-py.local>
References: <37C885D1-E6E6-4FF3-A56F-5BC5590FA582@die-kempers.de>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901195D@newserver.arneill-py.local>
	<4BFD9018.6060404@gate.net>
	<471D76419F9EF642962323D13DF1DF6901195F@newserver.arneill-py.local>
Message-ID: <EEDCFC8E-A2C7-4960-8C00-1C9CF06A0496@die-kempers.de>

Michel,
there is a little twist I have not told you guys so far.

Has something to do with PIN 14 on the DISK][ and why it took me so long to get my act together :-)
I believe you need a pair of resistors to fix it.

That's why I want to get my documentation right .

 Wolfgang (Talking in riddles)


On May 26, 2010, at 10:51 PM, Michel Py wrote:

> If all tests following Wolfgang's work with discrete logic, I believe
> that a single-sided PCB with a few jumpers and straps and a single
> 74LS32 would accommodate any /// or ///+ to anything.
> When looking at it closely, all the pinouts are very similar. The pins
> are not counted the same way with even-numbered connectors (such as the
> 26-pin Disk///) and odd-numbered such as the DB-25. However, it still
> turns out that when crimping cable, it all is the same thing.
> 
> 
> 01 03 05 07 09 11 13 15 17 19 21 23 25
> 02 04 06 08 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26
> 
> 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13
>  14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
> 
> Crimp this straight through and 99% of the pins are right.
> 
> 
> I would like someone to prototype the following:
> 
> Apple ///          Unidisk/Duodisk
> 14 OR 26   -->--   17
> 22 OR 26   -->--   9
> 
> OR function provided by 74LS32
> 
> All other matching signals straight through, naturally.
> I hope this would make a DuoDisk .d2 and .d3 if attached directly to the
> Apple ///, and .d3 and .d4 if attached to the back of a .d2 Disk///.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Louis Schulman [mailto:louiss at gate.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 2:18 PM
> To: Michel Py
> Cc: Wolfgang Kemper; Apple///
> Subject: Re: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
> 
> Wolfgang,
> 
> Indeed excellent work.  I would really love to use my virtually useless 
> duodisk with the Apple ///.
> 
> Since I am a complete know-nothing when it comes to digital logic, but 
> being pretty capable with a solder iron, I am really hoping that an 
> adapter for the duodisk using standard IC's can be described so that I 
> can put one together.
> 
> Many thanks!
> 
> Louis
> 
> On 5/26/2010 2:01 PM, Michel Py wrote:
>> Wolfgang,
>> 
>> Good work!
>> So if I read this correctly, the logic to connect a disk][ as .d2
> would be:
>> 
>>  Disk][       External /// connector
>> ---------     ----------------------
>>     ____                ____    ____
>> 14 (ENBL)  =  14 OR 26 (ENBL OR SLOT)
>> 
>> This is a single OR gate; 1/4 of a 74LS32. It would be interesting to
> build a simple adapter with the only active component being a 74LS32,
> VCC and GND are available on the cable.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Have to check if my setup will also work as .d3 or .d4 when
>>> a Disk/// is connected externally as .d2
>>> 
>> This is where you need to understand the daisy-chain part; each drive
> is the same and thinks it's .d2; there is a pin shift, down the
> daisy-chain ENBLB becomes ENBLA which becomes ENBL.
>> 
>> So in all logic, the same adapter described above should make a disk][
> act as .d3 when connected to the back of a .d2 external Disk///
>> 
>> I believe the following describes the Disk/// daisy chain correctly,
> but do check.
>> 
>>      J2 (IN)                  J3 (OUT)
>> ----------------          ----------------
>> ____     ____                ____     ____
>> SLOT  or ENd1 26 --->---- 26 SLOT  or ENd1 (no pin shift)
>> ____     ____
>> ENBL  or ENd2 14 --->---- NC               (d2 becomes nothing)
>> _____    ____                ____     ____
>> ENBLA or ENd3 22 --->---- 14 ENBL  or ENd2 (d3 becomes d2)
>> _____    ____                _____    ___
>> ENBLB or ENd4 21 --->---- 22 ENBLA or ENd3 (d4 becomes d3)
>> 
>> 
>> Unidisk/Duodisk adapter:
>> 
>> I is possible that, on top of the logic described earlier, if you
> route ENBLA from the Disk/// to pin9 of the Unidisk/Duodisk connector,
> it will work just the same. The Unidisk-daisy chain is as follows:
>> 
>> Unidisk IN           Unidisk OUT
>> ----------           -----------
>> ENd1 17    --->----  NC
>> ENd2 9     --->----  17 ENd1
>> 
>> Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_II for the Unidisk pinout.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>> 
>> 


From postmaster at die-kempers.de  Thu May 27 22:13:50 2010
From: postmaster at die-kempers.de (Postmaster)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:13:50 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <4BFE80B1.5000403@attglobal.net>
References: <mailman.1.1274889603.938.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BFD5B9A.4090700@attglobal.net>
	<BF251DBE-173D-4449-A558-2DFB0E83401C@die-kempers.de>
	<4BFE80B1.5000403@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <D38150BD-EBFA-4153-9EDF-B7939ABCCA3D@die-kempers.de>

David,
I like also to have a nice schematic added so everybody can build it.

By the way I uploaded a picture of a breadboard setup with a 74 541 .

Slot and Pin14 (of the ///) are connected to the OE's and Pin14 of the /// drives pin 14 of the disk][


http://www.flickr.com/photos/upload/done/?b=1275012712-1275012712-49815492 at N02

On May 27, 2010, at 9:24 AM, David Schmidt wrote:

> Hi, Wolfgang -
> 
> No hurry - since I couldn't read the table as it came across my news feed, I was hoping to get whatever form you had it in now.  But I can wait!
> 
> - David
> 
> Postmaster wrote:
>> David,
>> let me take the time and write a nice little How-to.
>> I would be very happy  to have it on Apple3.org
>> On May 26, 2010, at 12:34 PM, David Schmidt wrote:
>>> apple3-l-request at news.altair.com wrote:
>>>> Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too scrambled)
>>> Woflgang - thank you for decoding everything.  The format is pretty scrambled in the list view:
>>> http://news.altair.com/pipermail/apple3-l/2010-May/000242.html
>>> I wonder if you can send me whatever real format you have (.xls, .doc, whatever it is) over email to info at apple3.org so I can post it there?
>>> 
>>> - David Schmidt
> 


From louiss at gate.net  Thu May 27 22:44:04 2010
From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 22:44:04 -0400
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <D38150BD-EBFA-4153-9EDF-B7939ABCCA3D@die-kempers.de>
References: <mailman.1.1274889603.938.apple3-l@news.altair.com>	<4BFD5B9A.4090700@attglobal.net>	<BF251DBE-173D-4449-A558-2DFB0E83401C@die-kempers.de>	<4BFE80B1.5000403@attglobal.net>
	<D38150BD-EBFA-4153-9EDF-B7939ABCCA3D@die-kempers.de>
Message-ID: <4BFF2DF4.5030600@gate.net>

This link doesn't work for me.  First, it made me get a Yahoo account, 
then it said I needed to sign in as Wollek.  This can't be right.

Louis

On 5/27/2010 10:13 PM, Postmaster wrote:
> David,
> I like also to have a nice schematic added so everybody can build it.
>
> By the way I uploaded a picture of a breadboard setup with a 74 541 .
>
> Slot and Pin14 (of the ///) are connected to the OE's and Pin14 of the /// drives pin 14 of the disk][
>
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/upload/done/?b=1275012712-1275012712-49815492 at N02
>
> On May 27, 2010, at 9:24 AM, David Schmidt wrote:
>
>    
>> Hi, Wolfgang -
>>
>> No hurry - since I couldn't read the table as it came across my news feed, I was hoping to get whatever form you had it in now.  But I can wait!
>>
>> - David
>>
>> Postmaster wrote:
>>      
>>> David,
>>> let me take the time and write a nice little How-to.
>>> I would be very happy  to have it on Apple3.org
>>> On May 26, 2010, at 12:34 PM, David Schmidt wrote:
>>>        
>>>> apple3-l-request at news.altair.com wrote:
>>>>          
>>>>> Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too scrambled)
>>>>>            
>>>> Woflgang - thank you for decoding everything.  The format is pretty scrambled in the list view:
>>>> http://news.altair.com/pipermail/apple3-l/2010-May/000242.html
>>>> I wonder if you can send me whatever real format you have (.xls, .doc, whatever it is) over email to info at apple3.org so I can post it there?
>>>>
>>>> - David Schmidt
>>>>          
>>      
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>
>    

From wkemper at ti.com  Fri May 28 10:05:12 2010
From: wkemper at ti.com (Kemper, Wolfgang)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 09:05:12 -0500
Subject: [Apple3-L] Disk ][ on the /// Finished!
In-Reply-To: <4BFF2DF4.5030600@gate.net>
References: <mailman.1.1274889603.938.apple3-l@news.altair.com>
	<4BFD5B9A.4090700@attglobal.net>
	<BF251DBE-173D-4449-A558-2DFB0E83401C@die-kempers.de>
	<4BFE80B1.5000403@attglobal.net>
	<D38150BD-EBFA-4153-9EDF-B7939ABCCA3D@die-kempers.de>
	<4BFF2DF4.5030600@gate.net>
Message-ID: <B35CFA45-4D1C-4822-AF01-DF09A82AF386@ti.com>

Try this one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49815492 at N02/4646561618/
Regards,
Wolfgang



On May 27, 2010, at 9:44 PM, Louis Schulman wrote:

> This link doesn't work for me.  First, it made me get a Yahoo account, 
> then it said I needed to sign in as Wollek.  This can't be right.
> 
> Louis
> 
> On 5/27/2010 10:13 PM, Postmaster wrote:
>> David,
>> I like also to have a nice schematic added so everybody can build it.
>> 
>> By the way I uploaded a picture of a breadboard setup with a 74 541 .
>> 
>> Slot and Pin14 (of the ///) are connected to the OE's and Pin14 of the /// drives pin 14 of the disk][
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/upload/done/?b=1275012712-1275012712-49815492 at N02
>> 
>> On May 27, 2010, at 9:24 AM, David Schmidt wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Hi, Wolfgang -
>>> 
>>> No hurry - since I couldn't read the table as it came across my news feed, I was hoping to get whatever form you had it in now.  But I can wait!
>>> 
>>> - David
>>> 
>>> Postmaster wrote:
>>> 
>>>> David,
>>>> let me take the time and write a nice little How-to.
>>>> I would be very happy  to have it on Apple3.org
>>>> On May 26, 2010, at 12:34 PM, David Schmidt wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> apple3-l-request at news.altair.com wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Finally here is my magic pin decoder ring:(Hope the format does not get too scrambled)
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Woflgang - thank you for decoding everything.  The format is pretty scrambled in the list view:
>>>>> http://news.altair.com/pipermail/apple3-l/2010-May/000242.html
>>>>> I wonder if you can send me whatever real format you have (.xls, .doc, whatever it is) over email to info at apple3.org so I can post it there?
>>>>> 
>>>>> - David Schmidt
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Apple3-L mailing list
>> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
>> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Apple3-L mailing list
> Apple3-L at news.altair.com
> https://news.altair.com/mailman/listinfo/apple3-l


